Meryl and Beau From Campfire Sht Show |375|

#41
But of course :)



I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but I'm going to mention hierarchy and decentralized network again. Maybe it is so basic that everyone already sees it and I'm just fascinated with the obvious, but anyway... IMO, it is impossible to explicate the conspiracy culture phenomenon at a high level without talking about the different forms of organization as applied to the noosphere.


If we imagine a spectrum from centralized hierarchy on the left to a distributed network on the right, then conspiracies are the result of the steep power pyramid of ages past. Conspiracy theory culture is developed as a result of the noosphere getting jolted from (a) to (c) in the above diagram and then gradually evolving towards (b).

Yeah, a lot of the time a lot of us don't know what the hell we're talking about, but we are each nodes existing in an increasingly interconnected network, and we are collectively developing the same way any neural network develops. Before 9/11 the human hive mind looked more like (a) above. Then 9/11 comes along at the same time that the internet looked more like (c) above. The chaos of 9/11 primed our "circuits" to begin to recognize conspiracy.

From 9/11 onwards, we were presented with images and news stories one after another of traumatic events and we began to sort them out and develop more nuanced perceptions. Certain individuals arose as major nodes in the new network. The strength of each node began to be modified as feedback came in and the network now migrates back towards (b).

Like the Bitcoin blockchain miners, we are all constantly comparing notes and in the process of reaching a consensus on what is real. When a threshold is reached, suddenly perceptions shift as a new "mainstream" is established... not unlike that optical illusion we've all seen where a dancer appears to be spinning one direction and then if you try, you can see the dancer spinning the opposite direction. Have you ever imagined the neuronal storm that must be going on inside your head to make that shift? The battle that occurs to arrive at the consensus on which way the dancer is spinning?

The tendency over time is for things to migrate back towards centralization so we need periodic episodes of chaos to reset the network and overcome institutionalized biases. Our brains being massive networks, perhaps that is what the Kundalini experience is? A big jolt of chaos to the mental system that causes entrenched hierarchical perceptions to dissolve allowing a reset and reorganization to take place?

In a centralized hierarchical system there are always secrets, information is capital, deception is necessary, and narrative is power.
In a distributed network, everyone knows everything, information is constantly validated, validation strengthens the node, and narrative is the consensus rather than the script of an authority.

Okay... end of sermon on network/hierarchy.

Regarding the absurdity of biological robots in a meaningless universe... I feel like that is the result of atheist materialist fundamentalism, but most people aren't really fundies. They prefer to live with and ignore the implicit contradictions in their paradigm and go by feel rather than reason it to its nihilistic conclusion.

As a result, most debates about "biological robots" with materialists come down to ideas of monism vs. dualism. In a way, Alex is promoting a dualism (hey guys there's something "other" to consider here!) and the materialists are saying, "there can't be something "other" because how would we even interact with it? So it is all physics and material".

But what needs to happen is someone needs to point out that material - as in a solid object - is an ideal, and we can stretch the definition of material into something immaterial.

The real dualism is between things that follow rules and things that don't. If it follows rules and regularities it can be viewed in some sense as material (even if in an alternate dimension) and the scientific method can analyze it. If it does not follow rules and regularities then it is only an experience.. it is immaterial... until it happens again... and again... and again... and by repetition it becomes material... it graduates from chaos to order as our pattern recognizing neural networks adapt and integrate it.
Normal human consciousness dances between the physical and the metaphysical routinely - to the extent that we seem to inhabit the intersection between the two. The materialistic 'biological robot' mentality is a dogmatic denial of what should be self-evident. The denial is based upon awful logic - so bad in fact it is flagrantly illogical. It is not reason based and it is not information based. It is an existential dread dressed up to look like reason - and it looks like that only to people who share the dread. It looks like a ghoul to others.

However materialism has done such a fine marketing job in convincing our communities that it is responsible for all the wonderful material benefits we enjoy. While that may be true in the exploitation of scientific knowledge and subsequent commercialisation, it is not true for the actual science. People who do the science work are not materialists as a class - and the very best science seems to have been done by people who are at the very least open to the spiritual and the metaphysical.

But the average citizen doesn't know this. They validate the materialist propaganda because it seems reasonable. They buy the imputed authority and lose faith in their own experiences. They are persuaded that they must have misperceived, misinterpreted or hallucinated. And yet they harbour doubts. For many the alternative to materialism is only religion, and that has been subjected to seemingly just and rational objections.

For me this is the worst crime of materialism - to cause mistrust of one's own capacity to know what is true and real and good and seek, instead the assurance of authority. It is a criminal enterprise adapted from dogmatic religion. This is, for me, Conspiracy#1.

I think the materialist cause is dead in the water and starting to stink. But what is left is its impact in conditioning our collective and shared mentality and language. I am a great fan of Dynamo, Magician Impossible (check him out on YouTube). A witness to one of his impressive performances was a woman who did not appear to be especially well educated. Her response to what she had witnessed was to say that it "wasn't scientific". Others have observed that what they see isn't "proper" or "right". Who are these people to know what is 'scientific', 'proper' or 'right'?

We understand their words, because this is the language of our age - conditioned by materialism and scientific rationalism. But did the woman who said what she saw was "not scientific" literally mean that? I don't think she did. She meant the performance violated her notion of normal and expected in an emphatic manner. She used the language of the dominant mentality, the same way, centuries ago, the dominant mentality was religious and the language reflected that.

My point is that the widespread use of materialistic language is not evidence of materialistic thought. Even today an atheist will exclaim "For God's sake!" or "Christ!" and we will not take this as evidence of a conversion to the faith, will we?

Are we still fighting the battle or are we on the battlefield in the aftermath of a victory? Its a question we need to ask and answer. The answer shapes our thought and language.
 
#42
NDE's can be very similar to hypoxia based experiences.

I would search the forum for references to G-loc but the search function hasn't worked for a while. Apologies if this has already been beaten to death.
https://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

G-Loc is the loss of blood to the brain caused by extreme gravitational stress such as that experienced by Pilots in a centrifuge.

G-LOC Characteristics in Common With NDEs
(underlining not mine)
1. Tunnel vision / Bright light
2. Floating
3. Automatic movement
4. Autoscopy
5. Out-of-body experience
6. Not wanting to be disturbed
7. Paralysis
8. Vivid dreamlets / Beautiful places

a. Euphoria
b. Dissociation
9. Pleasurable
10. Psychologic state alteration
11. Friends / Family inclusion
12. Prior memories / Thoughts inclusion
13. Very memorable (when remembered)
14. Confabulation
15. Strong urge to understand
...so you're saying the soul DOES have mass? And we can sling it off the body like a sediment?

(j/k)
 
#43
Normal human consciousness dances between the physical and the metaphysical routinely - to the extent that we seem to inhabit the intersection between the two.
I agree we exist at the intersection. There are many metaphors for this intersection. The most all-encompassing one I've found is that of pattern. I vote for patternism to replace materialism. "Material" or "matter" implies something solid, static, immovable, and heavy. Materialism then implies that everything can be reduced to something solid and static... IOW, dead as a rock. In reality, nothing is static... stasis or metaphorically "death" is a simplified mental model we impose upon reality. We digitize it so we can compute it. The notion of "pattern" on the other hand recognizes that every comprehensible thing is composed of regularities and these are not necessarily solid, static, immovable, or heavy... IOW, not dead. There are no patterns without subjectively defined boundaries around arbitrarily classified objects so pattern is THE intersection of subject and object.

The materialistic 'biological robot' mentality is a dogmatic denial of what should be self-evident. The denial is based upon awful logic - so bad in fact it is flagrantly illogical. It is not reason based and it is not information based. It is an existential dread dressed up to look like reason - and it looks like that only to people who share the dread. It looks like a ghoul to others.
Its proponents would of course argue with you about the existential dread part and claim they are happy as a lark and create their own meaning and the fact that they aren't bound to something greater spanning many lifetimes frees them up to savor and enjoy this lifetime and this moment. They would argue that machines can become spiritual and emotional and that is what we are and that is what we will create and merge with.

For many the alternative to materialism is only religion, and that has been subjected to seemingly just and rational objections.
This has been the case for a long time, but I think more and more people - thanks to things like Skeptiko - are recognizing there is a middle way.

For me this is the worst crime of materialism - to cause mistrust of one's own capacity to know what is true and real and good and seek, instead the assurance of authority. It is a criminal enterprise adapted from dogmatic religion. This is, for me, Conspiracy#1.
I think every hierarchical organization emphasizes trust in authority over trust in self.

I think the materialist cause is dead in the water and starting to stink. But what is left is its impact in conditioning our collective and shared mentality and language. I am a great fan of Dynamo, Magician Impossible (check him out on YouTube). A witness to one of his impressive performances was a woman who did not appear to be especially well educated. Her response to what she had witnessed was to say that it "wasn't scientific". Others have observed that what they see isn't "proper" or "right". Who are these people to know what is 'scientific', 'proper' or 'right'?

We understand their words, because this is the language of our age - conditioned by materialism and scientific rationalism. But did the woman who said what she saw was "not scientific" literally mean that? I don't think she did. She meant the performance violated her notion of normal and expected in an emphatic manner. She used the language of the dominant mentality, the same way, centuries ago, the dominant mentality was religious and the language reflected that.

My point is that the widespread use of materialistic language is not evidence of materialistic thought. Even today an atheist will exclaim "For God's sake!" or "Christ!" and we will not take this as evidence of a conversion to the faith, will we?
Interesting anecdote and observation. :)

Are we still fighting the battle or are we on the battlefield in the aftermath of a victory? Its a question we need to ask and answer. The answer shapes our thought and language.
I wouldn't fly the "Mission accomplished" banner just yet, but I think we're definitely making progress towards a new more positive and more life affirming consensus about the nature of reality.
 
#44
NDE's can be very similar to hypoxia based experiences.

I would search the forum for references to G-loc but the search function hasn't worked for a while. Apologies if this has already been beaten to death.
https://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers/extreme-gravity.html

G-Loc is the loss of blood to the brain caused by extreme gravitational stress such as that experienced by Pilots in a centrifuge.

G-LOC Characteristics in Common With NDEs
(underlining not mine)
1. Tunnel vision / Bright light
2. Floating
3. Automatic movement
4. Autoscopy
5. Out-of-body experience
6. Not wanting to be disturbed
7. Paralysis
8. Vivid dreamlets / Beautiful places

a. Euphoria
b. Dissociation
9. Pleasurable
10. Psychologic state alteration
11. Friends / Family inclusion
12. Prior memories / Thoughts inclusion
13. Very memorable (when remembered)
14. Confabulation
15. Strong urge to understand
I think the G-Loc data is important and should be embraced by the NDE community rather pushed away. I see it falling in line with David Nutt's psilocybin research:
Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured ... - Nature
and other research that demolishes the mind=brain nonsense.
 
#45
#46
Thanks, Jim.




How does G-loc demonstrate that the mind=/= the brain, to you?
it fits the same pattern where a severely compromised brain correlates with extended conscious experiences. the fact that it happens in so many dif ways (e.g. NDE, psychedelics, terminal lucidity, etc.) is compelling.
 
#47
it fits the same pattern where a severely compromised brain correlates with extended conscious experiences. the fact that it happens in so many dif ways (e.g. NDE, psychedelics, terminal lucidity, etc.) is compelling.
... and at some point this (immaterial?) extended consciousness realm is interacting with the material realm (within the brain)? Is that how you see it?
 
#49
What is the evidence that G-LOC is correlating with the extended consciousness realm? People exeriencing G-LOC don't see dead people or have veridical experiences. They have "tunnel vision" they don't actually pass through a tunnel like NDErs. They don't have spritual transformations. They have "dreamlets" not prolonged experiences of the afterlife that follow a logical sequence. etc etc.
 
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#50
I was underwhelmed by this podcast -- it's the first Skeptiko show I haven't really liked ever. The Camp Fire Shit Show hosts just seem to be on the least interesting opposing sides of the spectrum. Meryl seems to be a person who has never met a conspiracy she didn't like (i.e., no discernment), while Beau seems stuck in his boring mainstream reality bubble (i.e., no independent thought or curiosity). The only interesting part for me was Meryl's description of her kundalini awakening -- but disappointingly, this seems to have led her to the conclusion that yoga leads people to opening portals to dark entities...

If we are going to explore "conspiracies" here as part of the likely true nature of reality, I think it is essential to bring on articulate, intelligent guests who can really explain why they believe a particular "conspiracy" is true.
 
#51
I think Alex just wanted to have some fun and who can blame him. It was a nice respite and he introduced me to a funny duo no matter what their predilections are.
 
#52
But of course :)



I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but I'm going to mention hierarchy and decentralized network again. Maybe it is so basic that everyone already sees it and I'm just fascinated with the obvious, but anyway... IMO, it is impossible to explicate the conspiracy culture phenomenon at a high level without talking about the different forms of organization as applied to the noosphere.


If we imagine a spectrum from centralized hierarchy on the left to a distributed network on the right, then conspiracies are the result of the steep power pyramid of ages past. Conspiracy theory culture is developed as a result of the noosphere getting jolted from (a) to (c) in the above diagram and then gradually evolving towards (b).

Yeah, a lot of the time a lot of us don't know what the hell we're talking about, but we are each nodes existing in an increasingly interconnected network, and we are collectively developing the same way any neural network develops. Before 9/11 the human hive mind looked more like (a) above. Then 9/11 comes along at the same time that the internet looked more like (c) above. The chaos of 9/11 primed our "circuits" to begin to recognize conspiracy.

From 9/11 onwards, we were presented with images and news stories one after another of traumatic events and we began to sort them out and develop more nuanced perceptions. Certain individuals arose as major nodes in the new network. The strength of each node began to be modified as feedback came in and the network now migrates back towards (b).

Like the Bitcoin blockchain miners, we are all constantly comparing notes and in the process of reaching a consensus on what is real. When a threshold is reached, suddenly perceptions shift as a new "mainstream" is established... not unlike that optical illusion we've all seen where a dancer appears to be spinning one direction and then if you try, you can see the dancer spinning the opposite direction. Have you ever imagined the neuronal storm that must be going on inside your head to make that shift? The battle that occurs to arrive at the consensus on which way the dancer is spinning?

The tendency over time is for things to migrate back towards centralization so we need periodic episodes of chaos to reset the network and overcome institutionalized biases. Our brains being massive networks, perhaps that is what the Kundalini experience is? A big jolt of chaos to the mental system that causes entrenched hierarchical perceptions to dissolve allowing a reset and reorganization to take place?

In a centralized hierarchical system there are always secrets, information is capital, deception is necessary, and narrative is power.
In a distributed network, everyone knows everything, information is constantly validated, validation strengthens the node, and narrative is the consensus rather than the script of an authority.

Okay... end of sermon on network/hierarchy.

Regarding the absurdity of biological robots in a meaningless universe... I feel like that is the result of atheist materialist fundamentalism, but most people aren't really fundies. They prefer to live with and ignore the implicit contradictions in their paradigm and go by feel rather than reason it to its nihilistic conclusion.

As a result, most debates about "biological robots" with materialists come down to ideas of monism vs. dualism. In a way, Alex is promoting a dualism (hey guys there's something "other" to consider here!) and the materialists are saying, "there can't be something "other" because how would we even interact with it? So it is all physics and material".

But what needs to happen is someone needs to point out that material - as in a solid object - is an ideal, and we can stretch the definition of material into something immaterial.

The real dualism is between things that follow rules and things that don't. If it follows rules and regularities it can be viewed in some sense as material (even if in an alternate dimension) and the scientific method can analyze it. If it does not follow rules and regularities then it is only an experience.. it is immaterial... until it happens again... and again... and again... and by repetition it becomes material... it graduates from chaos to order as our pattern recognizing neural networks adapt and integrate it.
Hurm (and anyone else here), what do you think about the positions expressed in this article?
 
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