Mod+ NDEs and CPR

#1
In this excerpt from skeptiko interview #99, Dr Jeffrey Long explains why CPR could not be the cause of NDEs in patients experiencing cardiac arrest.
http://www.skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long_takes_on_critics_of_evidence_of_the_afterlife/

Regarding speculation that NDEs result from regaining consciousness during CPR chest compressions, Dr. Long said, “When you talk to the patients who have actually survived CPR one thing that is very, very obvious is that the substantial majority of them are confused or amnesic when they’re recovered. If you read even a few near-death experiences, you immediately realize essentially none of them talk about episodes of confusion when they just don’t understand what’s going on. You really don’t see that at all. In fact, our research found that 76% of people having a near-death experience said their level of consciousness and alertness during the NDE was actually greater than their earthly, everyday life. So, you have to come away with the conclusion that even if there’s blood flow to the brain induced by CPR, it’s not correlated with the level of consciousness and alertness reported during near-death experiences.”

Dr. Long continues, “But also, in addition, the substantial majority of people that have a near-death experience associated with cardiac arrest are actually seeing their physical body well prior to the time that CPR is initiated. Once CPR is initiated, you don’t see any alteration in the flow of the near-death experience, suggesting that blood flow to the brain isn’t affecting the content in any way.
 
#2
Anything which suddenly changes neuron firing in the healthy brain, seems to have some correlation with the NDE.

During cardiac arrest, suddenly losing your active, high energy consuming field 'write' mechanism (neuron firing) because of lack of energy/oxygen etc, whilst your field 'read' mechanism remains temporarily functional (cilia, centrioles, microtubules etc) seems to be what we should really be discussing.

Considering the high levels of NDE's sometimes reported by cardiac arrest patients within a hospital setting, CPR is almost certainly going to be a factor.
 
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#3
This was Gerry Woerlee's attempt to explain the NDE by ordinary physiology, There is no evidence that the patients confabulate the experience (after the fact) but you have to assume they do. You also have to assume that enough blood flow is getting into the brain even though (apparently) animal studies have demonstrated that compressions can at the very best only get the pressure up to 40 millimetres of mercury. Parnia has said recently that the figure is much less than this based on their measurements with oximeters in the Aware study but he hasn't properly documented this yet so we have to wait for that.

With patients already in a medical facility , CPR is often not necessary, the first shock restores heart rhythm. Woerlee offers no explanation for why patients SHOULD confabulate a clear lucid experience during a time of great brain trauma other than just saying they must do. He offers no explanation as to why the Patient (Mr A) in Parnia's study did not report the pain of the shocks (like having your insides torn out) or the pain of the chest compressions which often fractures or breaks the ribs. I don't find any of Woerlee's ideas plausible or reasonable but that's all I'm going to say.

I will not be entering into any discussions with Max or anyone else as we have already been here before and I don't want to sound like a broken record.
 
#4
Well I just don't like the implication from the OP's quotes, that blood flow, and, following from that, an energy compromised brain, with consequently reduced neuronal firing, is not implicated in the cause of the experience.

You have a neuronal network that is more sensitive to em fields than the individual neurons themselves. Plenty of evidence that the networks are capable of transducing weak em energy. Plenty of evidence that the em fields generated by the neurons are not an epiphenomena, but are involved in training the networks, and subsequent neuron firing - in a feedback loop. Plenty of evidence suggesting cell to cell communication and organisation using em fields that implicate the centriole as a sensory and processing structure. Evidence of cell expression and organisation using em fields. Evidence of memory recovery after the robust recreation of networks, following massive deliberate network damage - indicating memories are not lost, but merely unable to be accessed in severely damaged networks. We have dendrites covered in dendritic spines that are dynamically shrinking and growing over seconds, and strongly implicated in transferring charges around the networks to advance or retard neuronal firing.

This evidence just goes on and on... And it all points to powerful passive network structures in the brain that process fields by coherent interference with all similar spatio temporal patterns.

These passive networks are forced to process fields from our own endogenous neuronal firing - which presents our specialised sensory data to these passive network structures, forcing them to process and interpret this field data, rather than other external field data.

When we have sudden changes in our own endogenous fields, caused by changes in neuronal firing ( cardiac arrest ) the passive network structures sometimes continue to process and interpret external fields, providing a rather different - and sometimes radically different - view of reality.

The whole system appears to be one humongous feedback loop, a shared reality with some type of underlying informational substrate. Changes in the system seem to be sucked up, processed, altered and spat back out via consciousness in my view. The whole thing is some sort of evolving system, why and to what ends... Who the hell knows.
 
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#5
Actually, the recently published results of the Sam Parnia AWARE study of the occurrence of consciousness and NE's during cardiac arrest and resuscitation performed in 15 hospitals and 3 countries reveal several facts described in these websites:

http://neardth.com/aware-parnia.php
http://neardth.com/aware-study-questions.php

The AWARE study statistics
The AWARE study was performed in several countries according to an identical fixed protocol. It is a study whose structure ensured a critical and accurate study. So let us look at some of the important statistics.
  • Number of cardiac arrests in study = 2060.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors was 330 = 330/2060 = 16% of all persons survived cardiac arrest.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors eligible for interview, and interviewed was 140.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors not interviewed was 330-140 = 190. They were not interviewed because they refused interview, did not respond to request for interview, were too ill, or had died (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014).
  • Number of interviewed survivors reporting consciousness during cardiac arrest was 55 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 55/140 = 39% of interviewed survivors experienced some sort of consciousness during cardiac arrest.
  • Consciousness with detailed memories during cardiac arrest, but no NDE, were reported by 46 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 46/140 = 33% of interviewed survivors.
  • Consciousness with detailed memories during cardiac arrest, associated with an NDE, were reported by 9 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 9/140 = 6.4% of interviewed survivors.
  • NONE of the 2060 patients exhibited any clinical signs of consciousness during cardiac arrest and resuscitation (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014).
The conclusions of this study are evident from the statistics above:

Meaning of the results of the AWARE study
The above statistics reveal that cardiac arrest is very often fatal. Of the 2060 persons whose statistics were included in the study, 2060 - 330 = 1730 died during the cardiac arrest period. Of the 330 survivors, 190 were too brain damaged, too ill to be interviewed, had died, or refused to be interviewed (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014). So all this study reveals is that only 140 of the 330 survivors were in a condition to be interviewed, and were willing to be interviewed. This is a "self-selected” group resulting in very evident conclusions:
  • We simply do not know whether the other 2060 - 140 = 1920 persons who were not interviewed, were conscious during cardiac arrest and resuscitation! They were either dead, too brain damaged, too ill, or refused interview. Accordingly, to say that 39% of ALL persons undergoing cardiac arrest and resuscitation experience some sort of consciousness is incorrect.
  • Likewise, to claim that about 6% of ALL persons undergoing cardiac arrest and resuscitation experience a near-death experience is also incorrect.
  • We CAN say that the AWARE study indicates that consciousness occurs quite often during cardiac arrest and resuscitation.
Nonetheless, even when these limitations are taken into account, the AWARE study of Sam Parnia and his co-workers remains a landmark study: finally demonstrating to physicians, that many people undergoing resuscitation for cardiac arrest may actually be conscious, even though they appear unconscious, and neither breathe, nor have any heartbeat.



What this does mean is that the well-known "dentureman" NDE was just such a case of unrecognized consciousness during cardiac arrest and resuscitation:

see: http://neardth.com/denture-man.php

It is wonderful how research once again confirms the physiological origin of consciousness and NDE's during cardiac arrest.
 
#6
Actually, the recently published results of the Sam Parnia AWARE study of the occurrence of consciousness and NE's during cardiac arrest and resuscitation performed in 15 hospitals and 3 countries reveal several facts described in these websites:

http://neardth.com/aware-parnia.php
http://neardth.com/aware-study-questions.php

The AWARE study statistics
The AWARE study was performed in several countries according to an identical fixed protocol. It is a study whose structure ensured a critical and accurate study. So let us look at some of the important statistics.
  • Number of cardiac arrests in study = 2060.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors was 330 = 330/2060 = 16% of all persons survived cardiac arrest.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors eligible for interview, and interviewed was 140.
  • Number of cardiac arrest survivors not interviewed was 330-140 = 190. They were not interviewed because they refused interview, did not respond to request for interview, were too ill, or had died (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014).
  • Number of interviewed survivors reporting consciousness during cardiac arrest was 55 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 55/140 = 39% of interviewed survivors experienced some sort of consciousness during cardiac arrest.
  • Consciousness with detailed memories during cardiac arrest, but no NDE, were reported by 46 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 46/140 = 33% of interviewed survivors.
  • Consciousness with detailed memories during cardiac arrest, associated with an NDE, were reported by 9 out of 140 interviewed survivors = 9/140 = 6.4% of interviewed survivors.
  • NONE of the 2060 patients exhibited any clinical signs of consciousness during cardiac arrest and resuscitation (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014).
The conclusions of this study are evident from the statistics above:

Meaning of the results of the AWARE study
The above statistics reveal that cardiac arrest is very often fatal. Of the 2060 persons whose statistics were included in the study, 2060 - 330 = 1730 died during the cardiac arrest period. Of the 330 survivors, 190 were too brain damaged, too ill to be interviewed, had died, or refused to be interviewed (Page 1801 in Parnia 2014). So all this study reveals is that only 140 of the 330 survivors were in a condition to be interviewed, and were willing to be interviewed. This is a "self-selected” group resulting in very evident conclusions:
  • We simply do not know whether the other 2060 - 140 = 1920 persons who were not interviewed, were conscious during cardiac arrest and resuscitation! They were either dead, too brain damaged, too ill, or refused interview. Accordingly, to say that 39% of ALL persons undergoing cardiac arrest and resuscitation experience some sort of consciousness is incorrect.
  • Likewise, to claim that about 6% of ALL persons undergoing cardiac arrest and resuscitation experience a near-death experience is also incorrect.
  • We CAN say that the AWARE study indicates that consciousness occurs quite often during cardiac arrest and resuscitation.
Nonetheless, even when these limitations are taken into account, the AWARE study of Sam Parnia and his co-workers remains a landmark study: finally demonstrating to physicians, that many people undergoing resuscitation for cardiac arrest may actually be conscious, even though they appear unconscious, and neither breathe, nor have any heartbeat.



What this does mean is that the well-known "dentureman" NDE was just such a case of unrecognized consciousness during cardiac arrest and resuscitation:

see: http://neardth.com/denture-man.php

It is wonderful how research once again confirms the physiological origin of consciousness and NDE's during cardiac arrest.
The conclusion you cite does not come from the evidence you cite. None of the researchers came to the conclusion that you did. You state that "research confirms the physiological origin of consciousness" there is nothing in this study which confirms this at all. ZERO

you can not say anything about the people who were not interviewed. You do not know what they experienced.

You can say consciousness occurred during cardiac arrest, however there is no explanation as to why. That's the point of the study. They had no brain function. There is no biological explanation of the consciousness.
 
#9
The conclusion you cite does not come from the evidence you cite. None of the researchers came to the conclusion that you did. You state that "research confirms the physiological origin of consciousness" there is nothing in this study which confirms this at all. ZERO

you can not say anything about the people who were not interviewed. You do not know what they experienced.

You can say consciousness occurred during cardiac arrest, however there is no explanation as to why. That's the point of the study. They had no brain function. There is no biological explanation of the consciousness.
You are quite correct that Sam Parnia could not explain how people could be conscious during resuscitation for cardiac arrest. This surprises me, because the answer has been revealed by studies of cardiac output generated by cardiac massage in HUMANS for the past several decades, and well described by the more than 140 year old "Fick Equation". This equation, and this HUMAN research actually predicts that significant numbers of people will be conscious during efficient cardiac massage.

Heck there is even a very good example provided by Michael Sabom in his 1982 book in which he gave b lood gas measxurements of a person who observed all that occurred around his body during cardiac arrest and massage

see: http://neardth.com/near-death-experiences-in-survivors-of-cardiac-arrest.php#hypoxia

I am not responsible for the lack of truly basic physiological knowledge on the part of Parnia or his co-workers -- knowledge of the Fick Equation used in cardiac catheterization laboratories the world over.
 
#10
None of the patients exhibited any kind of measurable symptoms of consciousness. Also, the EEG's at the time of cardiac arrest has been tested many times and verified. Even if you were correct, pumping enough blood to have consciousness does not in fact prove that there is consciousness caused by the brain. Then there is this.

"In practice, it is too fiddly to apply outside the laboratory. Also, ICU patients have inflamed lungs whose parenchyma consumes oxygen and confuses the issue further."

http://www.derangedphysiology.com/php/PAC/Ficks-principle-of-cardiac-output-monitoring.php

Your foolproof test and explanation is far from fool proof, which is why trained doctors have ignored it. I am not a doctor, I can't say.

"To calculate cardiac output by the Fick method, arterial and mixed venous blood must be drawn for blood gas analysis. The latter requires pulmonary artery catheterization to collect a true mixed venous sample. In addition, oxygen consumption must be measured; traditionally, this required collecting the patient‘s exhaled air over several minutes with cumbersome equipment. In an attempt to simplify and automate the Fick technique, newer approaches have used pulse oximetry, pulmonary artery oximetry, and on-line respiratory gas analysis or indirect calorimetry to measure oxygen consumption. 593, 594, 595 Although clinicians sometimes estimate the Fick cardiac output by assuming a constant basal value for oxygen consumption of approximately 200 to 250 mL/min, this approach is likely to be inaccurate in critically ill patients"

I highlight the last sentence here. There is a reason it is not used. Proving you have enough oxygen does not prove the brain is actually functioning and producing consciousness. There is no other evidence in the Aware study that these people were conscious.


http://web.squ.edu.om/med-Lib/MED_CD/E_CDs/anesthesia/site/content/v03/030288r00.HTM

then there is the last part. if NDE was explained by such a simple explanation and caused by the cardiac massage, why is the NDE rate not higher than it is? they are all massaged no? So they all should have the same result.
 
#11
Furthermore, when you read the discussion on page 1803 of the actual 2014 article by Parnia, you come across the following satements, backed up by a list of medical literature. I quote:

in contrast to anesthesia typically there is no measurable brain function within seconds after cardiac standstill. (17–21) This ‘flatlined’ isoelectric brain state which occurs with CA onset usually continues throughout CPR since insufficient cerebral blood flow (CBF) is achieved (22) to meet cerebral metabolic requirements during conventional CPR.(23–25)

17. Bennett DR, Nord NM, Roberts TS, Mavor H. Prolonged “survival” with flat EEG following CA. Electroencephalogr Clin Neurophysiol 1971;30:94.
18. Cerchiari EL, Sclabassi RJ, Safar P, Hoel TM. Effects of combined superoxide dismutase and deferoxamine on recovery of brainstem auditory evoked potentials and EEG after asphyxial CA in dogs. Resuscitation 1990;19:25–40.
19. Crow HJ, Winter A. Serial electrophysiological studies (EEG, EMG, ERG, evoked responses) in a case of 3 months’ survival with flat EEG following CA. Electroencephalogr Clin Neurophysiol 1969;27:332–3.
20. Hughes JR, Uppal H. The EEG changes during CA: a case report. Clin Electroencephalogr 1988;29:16–8.
21. Kano T, Hashiguchi A, Sadanaga M. Cardiopulmonary-cerebral resuscitation by using cardiopulmonary bypass through the femoral vein and artery in dogs. Resuscitation 1993;25:265–81.
22. Buunk G, van der Hoeven JG, Meinders AE. Cerebral blood flow after cardiac arrest. Neth J Med 2000;57:106–12.
23. Angelos M, Safar P, Reich H, et al. A comparison of cardiopulmonary resuscitation with cardiopulmonary bypass after prolonged cardiac arrest in dogs. Resuscitation 1991;21:121–35.
24. Gonzalez ER, Ornato JP, Garnett AR, et al. Dose-dependent vasopressor response to epinephrine during CPR in human beings. Ann Emerg Med 1989;18:920–6.
25. Shaffner DH, Eleff SM, Brambrink AM, et al. Effect of arrest time and cerebral per-fusion pressure during cardiopulmonary resuscitation on cerebral blood flow, metabolism, adenosine triphosphate recovery, and pH in dogs. Crit Care Med1999;27:1335–42.
This is an amzing list of refernces whci studiously ignores all relevant human research, and instead uses canine sudies and innapropriate human studies to account for a lack of an explanation for consciousness during cardiac arrest. I must confess to being surpised, stunned even....
 
#12
In this excerpt from skeptiko interview #99, Dr Jeffrey Long explains why CPR could not be the cause of NDEs in patients experiencing cardiac arrest.
http://www.skeptiko.com/jeffrey_long_takes_on_critics_of_evidence_of_the_afterlife/
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/12/nde-researcher-dr-jeffrey-long-md.html
In the interview Dr. Long explains why NDEs cannot be explained by
  • REM intrusions
  • Hallucinations
  • Brain chemicals such as Ketamine, DMT, etc.
  • Religious expectations
  • Cultural expectations
  • Hearing during resuscitation
  • Brain activity during CPR
  • Partial anesthesia
  • Misuse of anecdotes
  • Selective reporting
...
When you talk to the patients who have actually survived CPR, one thing that is very, very obvious is that the substantial majority of them are confused or amnesic, even when they're successfully recovered. They may be amnesic for the period of time following their successful resuscitation or even for events prior to the time of their cardiac arrest.

...

If you read even a few near-death experiences, you immediately realize that there’s essentially none of them that talk about episodes of confusion or altered mental status when they just don’t understand what’s going on. You really don’t see that at all.

Again, for near-death experiences, they're highly lucid, organized events. In fact, in the survey we did, we found 76% of people having a near-death experience said their level of consciousness and alertness during the NDE was actually greater than their earthly, everyday life. So again, getting back to statistics, that’s 3/4 and a substantial majority of the remaining 24% still had at least a level of consciousness and alertness equal to their earthly, everyday life.

So for that to be the statistics that you consistently see during near-death experiences and balance that with a substantial majority of people being confused around the time of their successful resuscitation from CPR, you really have to come away with the conclusion that even if there’s blood flow to the brain induced by CPR, it's a life-saving maneuver. By no means is that correlated with clear consciousness and certainly nowhere near the level of consciousness and alertness with near-death experiences. You just don’t see that.

But also, in addition to that, note that the substantial majority of people that have a near-death experience and have an out-of-body experience associated with cardiac arrest, are actually seeing their physical body well prior to the time that CPR is initiated. Once CPR is initiated, you don’t see any alteration in the flow of the near-death experience, suggesting that whatever blood flow might be going back to the brain is affecting the content, modifying it at all, in any way.

...

When there’s a cardiac arrest, the out-of-body observations that are often described during these near-death experiences certainly correlates to a time prior to CPR being initiated, and prior to a time there should be no possibility of a conscious, lucid, organized experience. And yet that’s exactly what happens.

I'll tell you another thing, too, is if you were doing CPR and that were accounting for memory, I would tell you that you would hear a lot more from near-death experiencers. They would talk about their remembrance of the pain of the chest compressions.

Alex, that’s a fairly painful procedure. It often breaks ribs and hurts. And yet, even when you have a patient who had a cardiac arrest and had a near-death experience, essentially never do you hear them describing as part of their near-death experience the pain of chest compressions.

...

And if their consciousness was really returning during CPR, wouldn't near-death experiencers not have out-of-body perceptions but describe their perceptions from within their physical body? And yet you don’t see that with near-death experiences.

So in other words, if you started CPR and they had a near-death experience and suddenly they started to have some consciousness, you’d expect that instead of having the out-of-body experience where their consciousness is apart from their body, their consciousness would be within their body. You just don’t see that.
....
That was brought out with your interview with Dr. Woerlee where you would consistently bring up evidence that Dr. Woerlee simply would not address. I think one of the biggest defenses that people have that don’t believe in an afterlife and don’t believe this kind of evidence is there’s this sort of barrier where they won’t hear it. They won’t respond to it. It’s just not something they care to address, which is somewhat surprising. I think all scholarly discussion of really any topic requires an open-minded dialogue about the evidence. It really starts with evidence. I think that’s where part of it is.

I think the other issue I’ve seen with other skeptics, and again talking in general about skeptics in general’s variety of paranormal experiences is they often have their pet theory. Their theory is how the world works, how things work, and it’s very, very difficult to dislodge them from whatever their pet theory might be, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Alex, that’s why there are over 20 different skeptical so-called explanations of near-death experience. The reason there are so many so-called explanations is that no one or several of these alternative explanations makes sense, even to the skeptics.

You actually have a great case report on that right on Skeptiko. Note when we interviewed Kevin Nelson, who had his theory for near-death experience, that being REM intrusion, notice that not once did he mention how chest compressions might cause consciousness that leads to near-death experience resulting. He just talked about REM intrusion.

But notice that Dr. Woerlee never once mentioned anything about REM intrusion. He simply had his pet theory about chest compressions. So this is kind of an interesting thing. I think skeptics can fairly easily see the logical flaws and the inadequacy of other skeptics’ theories in explaining the evidence, but they seem to cling rigorously to their own theory. It’s a very interesting phenomenon. I’ve seen this over and over.
"The reason there are so many so-called explanations is that no one or several of these alternative explanations makes sense, even to the skeptics."
 
#13
None of the patients exhibited any kind of measurable symptoms of consciousness. Also, the EEG's at the time of cardiac arrest has been tested many times and verified. Even if you were correct, pumping enough blood to have consciousness does not in fact prove that there is consciousness caused by the brain. Then there is this.

"In practice, it is too fiddly to apply outside the laboratory. Also, ICU patients have inflamed lungs whose parenchyma consumes oxygen and confuses the issue further."

http://www.derangedphysiology.com/php/PAC/Ficks-principle-of-cardiac-output-monitoring.php

Your foolproof test and explanation is far from fool proof, which is why trained doctors have ignored it. I am not a doctor, I can't say.

"To calculate cardiac output by the Fick method, arterial and mixed venous blood must be drawn for blood gas analysis. The latter requires pulmonary artery catheterization to collect a true mixed venous sample. In addition, oxygen consumption must be measured; traditionally, this required collecting the patient‘s exhaled air over several minutes with cumbersome equipment. In an attempt to simplify and automate the Fick technique, newer approaches have used pulse oximetry, pulmonary artery oximetry, and on-line respiratory gas analysis or indirect calorimetry to measure oxygen consumption. 593, 594, 595 Although clinicians sometimes estimate the Fick cardiac output by assuming a constant basal value for oxygen consumption of approximately 200 to 250 mL/min, this approach is likely to be inaccurate in critically ill patients"

I highlight the last sentence here. There is a reason it is not used. Proving you have enough oxygen does not prove the brain is actually functioning and producing consciousness. There is no other evidence in the Aware study that these people were conscious.


http://web.squ.edu.om/med-Lib/MED_CD/E_CDs/anesthesia/site/content/v03/030288r00.HTM

then there is the last part. if NDE was explained by such a simple explanation and caused by the cardiac massage, why is the NDE rate not higher than it is? they are all massaged no? So they all should have the same result.

What an interesting point. I find it very curious that you say there was no evidence in the AWARE study that any of these people were conscious. 140 survivors were interviewed. If we ignore the 6% of these 140 interviewed persons who had an NDE, the other 33% of these 140 persons were conscious without an NDE. Do you mean these people were actually unconscious even though they demonstrated they were conscious?
So are all the researchers working with Sam Parnia, and all the other researchers who revealed the same phenomenon incorrect when they claim that people were conscious during cardiac arrest even though they appeared unconscious at the time? Just look at the percentages of people conscious without NDEs in these other cardiac arrest studies…..
See: http://neardth.com/aware-study-questions.php#Comparison
The fact that no clinical evidence was detected in these people means nothing in clinical medicine. There are several situations in which people are conscious, even though they appear unconscious. Brain oxygen starvation is one of these situations.
So were these people conscious or unconscious?
 
#15
Watch out! This Mr Swiffer IS Woerlee! A man who is always right! (at least, he thinks so!)
Discussions with him are thus entirely fruitless.
I am aware of this. However, he needs to go back to school and learn causation. What I clearly said was that there was no evidence that the consciousness was caused by the massage he keeps going on about. By the by, Mr. Worlee does not respond to the bulk of what I posted, which says everything you need to know about him.

In order to be right the consciousness he talks about must be caused by the massage. There is zero evidence of biological consciousness at all as is evidenced by the paper. Therefore if there was consciousness, which in some cases there was, it was not caused by the massage. Also since everyone by his own admission received the massage he must explain why a vast majority of them did not report having any consciousness at all. There is no causal relationship between the massage and the consciousness talked about in the paper.

He also ignored that any test, which is never given on the fick method results would be unreliable because nobody is going to bring that equipment in to a CPR. It is a lab test. Therefore the math equation he is trying to use by his own sources is not a reliable calculation.

I'm aware that he thinks he knows everything. I know a lot of people who think they know everything, I also know a lot of idiots.

I don't know anything. I'll stick to Socrates.
 
#16
I am aware of this. However, he needs to go back to school and learn causation. What I clearly said was that there was no evidence that the consciousness was caused by the massage he keeps going on about. By the by, Mr. Woerlee does not respond to the bulk of what I posted, which says everything you need to know about him.

In order to be right the consciousness he talks about must be caused by the massage. There is zero evidence of biological consciousness at all as is evidenced by the paper. Therefore if there was consciousness, which in some cases there was, it was not caused by the massage. Also since everyone by his own admission received the massage he must explain why a vast majority of them did not report having any consciousness at all. There is no causal relationship between the massage and the consciousness talked about in the paper.

He also ignored that any test, which is never given on the fick method results would be unreliable because nobody is going to bring that equipment in to a CPR. It is a lab test. Therefore the math equation he is trying to use by his own sources is not a reliable calculation.

I'm aware that he thinks he knows everything. I know a lot of people who think they know everything, I also know a lot of idiots.

I don't know anything. I'll stick to Socrates.
Great response, thanks!

The funny thing is that HE thinks that everybody else, in the medical world, has to go back to school... i.e. HIS school, where he is the ultimate teacher... :)
 
#18
Then there is the little matter of shared death experiences... basically an NDE when you are perfectly healthy.]
Agreed! But no worries, mate! Woerlee has for everything an answer, including the usual skeptical stop gap: the persons involved were either deluded or cheating, or both.

I just saw the above video. Very very impressive and highly credible, in particular as another person in the same room experienced something very similar, which he found out many years later. Hence, corroborating evidence. What more can one wish?

But, again, no worries: for Woerlee and his ilk it is all b***t -- it cannot be therefore it is not. The most plausible argument pseudo-skeptics can come up with. yeah yeah...:mad:
 
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#19
I will give you all a little lesson on the Fick Equation once you answer the questions:

1. Were the 33% of the 140 persons repoting consciousness in the AWARE study conscious or not. Parnia said they appeared unconsciousn during the coardiac arrest.
2. Were the 12% of the 62 patients interviewed by Pim van Lommel conscious during cardiac arrest or not?

Or were all these people not conscious?
None of them reported undergoing an NDE... they were just conscious during cardiac arrest, even though they appeared unconscious.

Any thoughts?
 
#20
Great response, thanks!

The funny thing is that HE thinks that everybody else, in the medical world, has to go back to school... i.e. HIS school, where he is the ultimate teacher... :)
Nevertheless he's pretty funny. Not so funny as with his "ordinary crash cart" and "bone conduction" but still well))) Skin Vision will be probably the next step...)

BTW - hi Rudolf and hi to all! This is my 1st post at the new forum.
:D
 
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