NDES and OBES: dreams are the key

#41
I have had many (less dramatic) versions of the "candle story" in my own OBE attempts. Seeming to flow through the curtains, convincing myself that I was out of body, and trying to remember what the sensation was like...only to awaken in my bedroom and realize that it didn't matter because the curtains were never in fact closed. Numerous examples like this...right the way up to the house itself having extra rooms or a different layout and I didn't even notice this during the "OBE"..
One interpretation of this might be that you are prone to have dreams about having an OBE!

David
 
#42
I'm not sure what literature is implying that they were ever easy. And some modern practitioners intentionally blur the lines because it helps sell more books, but even those aren't claiming a fully veridical account is easy. A free e-book The Phase is one of such that goes on about the techniques, and even mentions that most of them are difficult and recommends the techniques for lucid dreaming at first because it is easier to use those to get at self-control of your subconscious.
Well, of course that it might not really be possible, is one reason why it may not be "easy." At the end of the day, "accounts" are not sufficient to persuade me (personally...others must decide for themselves) that this is really happening. From my own experiences, I am too familiar with the tricks that the mind can play...even on itself (perhaps, especially on itself?).
 
#43
Well, of course that it might not really be possible, is one reason why it may not be "easy."
The shamans that anthropologists report having known things that they should not yet have known about, are people who are full-time dedicated to their practice. I have not heard master practitioners say once that it was easy; then again this is true for any profession, even professions that "really are possible" like musicians. I'm not sure why for a "true" projection or OBE experience to be a possibly existent concept, it must be accessible from a one-click shopping cart.

From my own experiences, I am too familiar with the tricks that the mind can play...even on itself (perhaps, especially on itself?).
How do you know that existence itself isn't a demon tricking you?
 
#44
The shamans that anthropologists report having known things that they should not yet have known about, are people who are full-time dedicated to their practice. I have not heard master practitioners say once that it was easy; then again this is true for any profession, even professions that "really are possible" like musicians. I'm not sure why for a "true" projection or OBE experience to be a possibly existent concept, it must be accessible from a one-click shopping cart.



How do you know that existence itself isn't a demon tricking you?
Yes, but the trouble with musicians, mathematicians etc as analogy, is that there are clearly and publicly discernible outcomes. Look, I'm not saying that it can't be happening. I'm just not sure. Our ability, which seems very developed, for "talking these things up" makes me suspicious. One could find real world evidence of exceptional musical or mathematical ability in one month, if one was suitably determined. Try achieving that with OBEs, and the problem will come into greater relief. I'd be *delighted* to have strong evidence of OBEs. Apart from all my own experiments, I think I mentioned before that I'd be happy for anyone to OBE to my home and read a target. I have many times offered to do this and to keep it up for YEARS if there is a difficulty in succeeding. But seriously, if that task is not completable, one has to ask whether this can ever really happen, at least by voluntary effort.
 
C

chuck.drake

#45
Yes, but the trouble with musicians, mathematicians etc as analogy, is that there are clearly and publicly discernible outcomes. Look, I'm not saying that it can't be happening. I'm just not sure. Our ability, which seems very developed, for "talking these things up" makes me suspicious. One could find real world evidence of exceptional musical or mathematical ability in one month, if one was suitably determined. Try achieving that with OBEs, and the problem will come into greater relief. I'd be *delighted* to have strong evidence of OBEs. Apart from all my own experiments, I think I mentioned before that I'd be happy for anyone to OBE to my home and read a target. I have many times offered to do this and to keep it up for YEARS if there is a difficulty in succeeding. But seriously, if that task is not completable, one has to ask whether this can ever really happen, at least by voluntary effort.
You've mentioned that several times, but I can't for the life of me think of any reason why someone would want to take the time and effort to prove anything to you. That no one has taken up your offer to spend the time and effort to read numbers you have taped to your wall proves nothing.
 
#46
You've mentioned that several times, but I can't for the life of me think of any reason why someone would want to take the time and effort to prove anything to you. That no one has taken up your offer to spend the time and effort to read numbers you have taped to your wall proves nothing.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the offer (which is, let's hope that this is really happening, and try to find evidence for it, rather than try to prove it doesn't happen). But what I find most intriguing (indeed, disconcerting) in responses such as yours is the seeming hostility to the whole idea of actually finding out. Maybe you don't intend that...but I can tell you that this is how it comes across. When I read the original classic OBE books (Monroe, Muldoon etc), incidents which were presented as "proof that this was happening in the real world" were in no short supply. But if those events were really happening even at the level of repeatability that these books suggested, any serious attempt to discover this fact would not have gone long unrewarded, even by a moderate investment of time, sincerity, and effort. As it happens, there seems to be no shorter and more efficient way of bringing a discussion on OBEs to a close than to suggest that someone actually tries to read a target. I just don't get it.
 
#47
Agreed, interesting thread! I have a quick question about this section.

But clearly, this is a lucid dream. He thought he was “out of body,” he thought he blew out an actual candle…but he was dreaming, based on his knowledge and awareness of the room he was in.
Why is that a lucid dream? Unless you are using a different definition for the term then I'm not sure what you mean.
 
#48
But what I find most intriguing (indeed, disconcerting) in responses such as yours is the seeming hostility to the whole idea of actually finding out. Maybe you don't intend that...but I can tell you that this is how it comes across.
I was going to write a similar post, until I saw his come up. It may seem hostile, but keep in mind that people who claim to have any degree of psychic sensitivity are constantly bombarded with people telling them it's just their brain being schizophrenic or that they should apply to some skeptic program to prove it. Many of them (such as say, empaths?) actually find their sensitivities to be inhibitory to their lives in many ways, as it isn't a simple matter of just turning the "empathy" lobe on or off, nor the same for mediums. So unless you are already a good friend with one of them, its comparable to wolf whistling women off the street and wondering why they don't want to date you all the sudden.
 
#49
There isn't a requirement for a subtle body; some variants of projection literature suggest creating a construct (merkaba) for use during the experience. I see no reason why the construct wouldn't be visible, if one was used and someone else was able to somehow look in the same places. Maybe the sense of being stared at is applicable here?.
Be a construct or not, it remains a physical presence. The subtle body may be a construct of projector's mind in the sense that the projector's appearance is the image of the projector itself, but it remains a physical object.

I guess one of the underlying questions about OBEs is what constitutues "presence" in physical space? If something is seen at a location, even if by more than one person, is that sufficient to show that something is actually present and not a feature of a mental reality nonetheless? What about a PK-influence on a strain gauge? To be sure, part of what we take to be our own physical presence is comprised of influences at a given location, however the analogy seems problematic, because the source of those influences, my corporeal self, is evidently identified.
I have already written that there are certain features of some OBEs, NDEs and apparitions indicate a objective presence. If we insist that these features are creations of the mind, then we are in a stalemate, because it's like trying to prove if realism or idealism is true, which is impossible.

The real, underlying issue, imo, is whether such presences are ever causally independent of the living physicality of the person who somehow begets them, even in the case of apparent apparitions and phantoms. One of the largest studies of apparitions, Green and McCreery (sp?) came to precisely this issue and were of the opinion that finally they were a kind of mental phenomena at times deliberately emulating physical phenomena (casting...or seeming to cast in terms of perception of the witnesses...shadows, etc).
Cases of apparitions which motive for manifest not seem to correspond to any living being, cases of collective apparitions seen by several witnesses at the same time, cases of drop-in mediumship, etc., indicate that the most likely is that presences exist independently of the living and and it correspond with deceased intelligences.
 
#50
I have already written that there are certain features of some OBEs, NDEs and apparitions indicate a objective presence. If we insist that these features are creations of the mind, then we are in a stalemate...
I don't think we have to 'insist' on any particular explanation, we can simply keep our options open. I do find the 'flaky' nature of my perception as a problem for 'direct' (as opposed to indirect) theories. I certainly seem to experience minor positive and negative hallucinations on a regular basis, such as being unable to see my keys on the kitchen worktop right in front of me, probably because deep down, I didn't believe that was where I had last left them.
 
#51
I was going to write a similar post, until I saw his come up. It may seem hostile, but keep in mind that people who claim to have any degree of psychic sensitivity are constantly bombarded with people telling them it's just their brain being schizophrenic or that they should apply to some skeptic program to prove it. Many of them (such as say, empaths?) actually find their sensitivities to be inhibitory to their lives in many ways, as it isn't a simple matter of just turning the "empathy" lobe on or off, nor the same for mediums. So unless you are already a good friend with one of them, its comparable to wolf whistling women off the street and wondering why they don't want to date you all the sudden.
But this doesn't really answer to those book authors especially who have numerous "veridical" anecdotes in their books, yet somehow never manage to volunteer for actual studies. They would just rather keep publishing. Kudos to Monroe...at least he agreed to try. However, the results allowed the conclusion of nothing in particular.
 
#52
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Cases of apparitions which motive for manifest not seem to correspond to any living being, cases of collective apparitions seen by several witnesses at the same time, cases of drop-in mediumship, etc., indicate that the most likely is that presences exist independently of the living and and it correspond with deceased intelligences.
I don't see any particularly strong evidence for the independent physical existence of apparitions in any of that, to be honest. I think it's a subjective judgement. I'm also not sure in the first place of lumping apparitions in with OBEs. IMO, OBEs would need to demonstrate themselves on their own terms. It's not the best of science to constantly be referring to other (questionably relevant) phenomena when the primary phenomena under discussion is not even established.
 
#53
We cannot hope to understand NDEs or OBEs until we have understood correctly the more familiar elephant in the lounge of consciousness, which is nocturnal dreams.
The physical characteristics that define the OBE including astral traveling are well documented (Buhlman, Bruce, Myers, Head, Peterson, Taylor, Hughes, Minero and dozens of others) quite different and separate from the nocturnal dream state. The post-OBE mental state is significantly more lucid (event memory in particular) . Comparing nocturnal dreaming and the OBE is like comparing apples and asphalt.

Those that have self-initiated an OBE from waking consciousness know that without any doubt whatsoever that their experience is one of waking consciousness to hyper-real waking consciousness.

It would be my suggestion that the best way to decoupled dreaming from the OBE/AT would be to experience an OBE for yourself. Most everyone can.
 
#54
Kai, why is that a lucid dream? Unless you are using a different definition for the term then I'm not sure what you mean.
And therein lies a conundrum. Definitions for OBE, astral travel, astral projection, dream lucidity, WILDing and various other terms remain in the eye of the user - so to speak. :eek: Personally, I tend to separate them by whether or not waking consciousness is included and the energy state that is involved in the destination.

These definitions come from my personal experiences in OBE/AT/AP and are so tainted by them. Hence the conundrum as most authors in the OBE field define their experiences accordingly as they well should. The OBE is a highly personal exploration especially when ethereal/astral planes and dimensions are the destinations.

Buhlman's survey of 16,000+ OBErs does highlight the similarities and commonly associated phenomena

http://www.astralinfo.org/survey-results/

of the OBE which should assist those who are attempting to personally define their experience as dreaming or out-of-body...wherein they can arrive at their own definitions! :D
 
#55
I don't see any particularly strong evidence for the independent physical existence of apparitions in any of that, to be honest. I think it's a subjective judgement. I'm also not sure in the first place of lumping apparitions in with OBEs. IMO, OBEs would need to demonstrate themselves on their own terms. It's not the best of science to constantly be referring to other (questionably relevant) phenomena when the primary phenomena under discussion is not even established.
During the OBE many experience other beings that appear to be very much like the classical apparition in form(lessness), color and function. Nicholls talks about one of his astral worlds having a cerulean hue and the beings appearing somewhat formless, ghost or apparition-like. My experience is that more often than not in the lower astral planes especially that "apparition" is very common. Keep in mind that these are images formed by thought-energy not light frequencies bounced off our retinas or necessarily physically determined by the third chakratic eye!

I see that you mention "science". All fine and good but I couldn't give a ats rat about what science can or cannot tell us about the OBE, their "ball is not in play" in the OBE world . Most self-inducing OBErs would quickly agree may I add. ;)
 
#56
Well, of course that it might not really be possible, is one reason why it may not be "easy." At the end of the day, "accounts" are not sufficient to persuade me (personally...others must decide for themselves) that this is really happening. From my own experiences, I am too familiar with the tricks that the mind can play...even on itself (perhaps, especially on itself?).
Well spoken, Kai! Anyone who takes "accounts" as de facto is dealing in OBE belief not OBE knowledge. Considering that it takes only a modicum of effort and that most people who seriously desire to have an OBE can, why not give it a try?

I would enjoy hearing your OBE experience, the best of the OBE practitioners were once atheists and/or materialists, just ask William Buhlman! :D

What have you to lose except your limits?
 
#57
The physical characteristics that define the OBE including astral traveling are well documented (Buhlman, Bruce, Myers, Head, Peterson, Taylor, Hughes, Minero and dozens of others) quite different and separate from the nocturnal dream state. The post-OBE mental state is significantly more lucid (event memory in particular) . Comparing nocturnal dreaming and the OBE is like comparing apples and asphalt.

Those that have self-initiated an OBE from waking consciousness know that without any doubt whatsoever that their experience is one of waking consciousness to hyper-real waking consciousness.

It would be my suggestion that the best way to decoupled dreaming from the OBE/AT would be to experience an OBE for yourself. Most everyone can.
I'd have to disagree. The whole point about the candle anecdote is...here we have a famous "projector" whose data is sometimes used by people as evidence that OBEs exist in a real-world sense...unable to distinguish that this wasn't an OBE until he reawakened and discovered that he had NOT in fact blown out the candle. All other cues to the experience bluffed him that he was having a genuine OBE. And therein lies the problem. IF an "OBE" can only be distinguished by "veridical information" then this is a conclusion about the acquisition of information, not about the real-world literality of an "out of body" condition. This information could be acquired without the person being "out of a body" at all. Even Harary has said that he is not at all convinced that these experiences were ever really and *literally* out of body. For something to be out of a body, there must first of all be something that was in a body. But if that whole way of thinking is false (and it is very problematic...what do we mean by "in" a body?...your heart, lungs, and brain are in your body. Other meanings are highly debatable, except as metaphor. But even waiving all of that, if an OBE cannot be distinguished from certain categories of lucid dream, then it is doubtful that they have their own unique phenomenology, and I suspect that is the case. By the way, popular authors are not quality sources in my opinion, especially when said authors could hardly be described as having volunteered themselves to proper study.
 
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#58
And therein lies a conundrum. Definitions for OBE, astral travel, astral projection, dream lucidity, WILDing and various other terms remain in the eye of the user - so to speak. :eek: Personally, I tend to separate them by whether or not waking consciousness is included and the energy state that is involved in the destination.
Well then, they aren't properly defined if they are "in the eye of the user." For there to be a phenomenal diagnostic for OBEs as a real-world phenomenon there has to be stable, empirical material that separates an "OBE" from a lucid dream. And I don't think that there is. All the phneomena of an OBE can occur in a lucid dream, including (if one accepts its existence) telepathic information.

I don't know what you mean by "energy state that is involved in the destination." I would suspect that to be an argument that would require one to be a believer in astral projection doctrine in order to process. But again, I cannot see how concepts of "astral energy" and so forth could be empirically tested. I would again suspect that the phenomena that people interpret as "spiritual energies" can manifest just as well in striking lucid dreams.
 
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#59
During the OBE many experience other beings that appear to be very much like the classical apparition in form(lessness), color and function. Nicholls talks about one of his astral worlds having a cerulean hue and the beings appearing somewhat formless, ghost or apparition-like. My experience is that more often than not in the lower astral planes especially that "apparition" is very common. Keep in mind that these are images formed by thought-energy not light frequencies bounced off our retinas or necessarily physically determined by the third chakratic eye!

I see that you mention "science". All fine and good but I couldn't give a ats rat about what science can or cannot tell us about the OBE, their "ball is not in play" in the OBE world . Most self-inducing OBErs would quickly agree may I add. ;)
And in there somewhere, if you look for it carefully, I'm sure you'll find an explanation for why science (and most of the rest of the world too) doesn't care much about OBEs either.
 
#60
I don't think we have to 'insist' on any particular explanation, we can simply keep our options open.
Ok, but sometimes we have to lean towards some explanation. You seem to insist on the idea that the veridical content of NDEs is a result of acquiring the perception of others rather than an own extrasensory perception.

I do find the 'flaky' nature of my perception as a problem for 'direct' (as opposed to indirect) theories. I certainly seem to experience minor positive and negative hallucinations on a regular basis, such as being unable to see my keys on the kitchen worktop right in front of me, probably because deep down, I didn't believe that was where I had last left them.
Direct or indirect theories of perception have little to do with find out the physical presence of something.

I don't see any particularly strong evidence for the independent physical existence of apparitions in any of that, to be honest. I think it's a subjective judgement. I'm also not sure in the first place of lumping apparitions in with OBEs. IMO, OBEs would need to demonstrate themselves on their own terms. It's not the best of science to constantly be referring to other (questionably relevant) phenomena when the primary phenomena under discussion is not even established.
I already wrote the reasons for concluding that some apparitions are physical presences. In empirical science there is always a subjective judgment. I also wrote that the most parsimonious is that some apparitions of livings may be the other side of the OBEs when the projector is perceived by someone in the place where he/she is projected.
 
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