NDEs, consciousness, vibrations (very interesting please read)

#1
Hi,

First, I want to say my position on NDEs is agnostic. The evidence is compelling but not quite strong enough for me to believe, so I'm doing a lot of reading on it. My name is because I have a huge grudge against the inevitable nihilistic philosophy of materialism, even if materialism is right I will still think of life as more than just meat.

In NDEs many people say reality is "vibration". The first time i came across vibration is this NDE http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/arthur-yensen.html At the time I thought the guy is a fraud when he said "master vibration" and every thing is vibration. But this vibration thing gets mentioned fairly consistently by NDErs, e.g. (skip to 20:30)


Eben Alexander mention vibration too.

I remember a NDEr who said the being of light showed her what consciousnes/love is, and she saw a vibrating 3D lattice in the universe (can't remember link). I never made much about this vibration thing, until yesterday when I watched this


and reading this http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2013/08/the-good-vibrations-of-quantum-field-theories/

I was like HOLY SHIT. For people who don't want to watch it, it says each elementary particle (like electron) is a VIBRATION in its respective field (electron is a localized vibration in the electron field).

Oneness of consciousness gets mentioned consistently. NDErs say consciousness/afterlife is a "higher state of vibration". Also Michael Persinger, a confirmed materialist, believes consciousness is a magnetic field from his telepathy experiments


http://skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/


Vibration is definitely not part of western culture's perception of afterlife. If NDEs are hallucinations, it's rather strange it keeps getting mentioned. My questions are:

(1) does eastern culture/buddhism have the the notion of vibration in soul/afterlife?

(2) might consciousness be a "higher state of vibration" like with electrons/quarks? So consciousness is PHYSICAL, just like elementary particles. In the video it says the Higgs field is everywhere but very difficult to detect. Also dark matter is very difficult to detect. Is it possible our instruments just aren't sensitive enough to pickup the conscious field? That why no one ever detected soul particles. So brain really does act like a receiver of the conscious field, and a person's soul is like a (very large) elementary particle in the conscious field


What are your thoughts on this? And any skeptics, please point out what you see wrong. Can someone get Bernardo Kastrup in here? I would like his view on this, if he's willing to comment.
 
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#3
Sci, You know I couldn't help myself from looking. Wiki says:
Information field theory (IFT) is a Bayesianstatistical field theory relating to signal reconstruction, cosmography, and other related areas.[1] IFT summarize the information available on a physical field using Bayesian probabilities. It uses computational techniques developed for quantum field theory and statistical field theory to handle the infinite number of degrees of freedom of a field and to derive algorithms for the calculation of field expectation values. For example, the posterior expectation value of a field generated by a known Gaussian process and measured by a linear device with known Gaussian noise statistics is given by a generalized Wiener filter applied to the measured data. IFT extends such known filter formula to situations with nonlinear devices, non-Gaussian field or noise statistics, dependence of the noise statistics on the field values, and partly unknown parameters of measurement. For this it uses Feynman diagrams, renormalisation flow equations, and other methods from mathematical physics.[2]
I always really wonder about Gauss; and what he did to be so normal.

All these terms about fields seem pretty abstract, and not as "tangible" as a magnetic field implies. The term field - commonly is inferred to be a "workable" environment, from our agricultural heritage as biological beings. Technically, the term field has so many meanings as to be obscure.
 
#4
Sci, You know I couldn't help myself from looking. Wiki says:
I always really wonder about Gauss; and what he did to be so normal.

All these terms about fields seem pretty abstract, and not as "tangible" as a magnetic field implies. The term field - commonly is inferred to be a "workable" environment, from our agricultural heritage as biological beings. Technically, the term field has so many meanings as to be obscure.
Confusingly, the same term is used in maths to denote a set of things that support all four arithmetic operations - such as the real numbers, or integer operations mod p (where p is a prime number).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_field

David
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#5
Sci, You know I couldn't help myself from looking. Wiki says:

All these terms about fields seem pretty abstract, and not as "tangible" as a magnetic field implies. The term field - commonly is inferred to be a "workable" environment, from our agricultural heritage as biological beings. Technically, the term field has so many meanings as to be obscure.
Lol @ this -> "I always really wonder about Gauss; and what he did to be so normal."

It seems to me fields are only defined in terms of measured relations, just like force and energy there is no description of what is. Physicist Lee Smolin notes this limitation of science:

The problem of qualia, or consciousness, seems unanswerable by science because it's an aspect of the world that is not encompassed when we describe all the physical interactions among particles. It's in the domain of questions about what the world really is, not how it can be modeled or represented.

Some philosophers argue that qualia simply are identical to certain neuronal processes. This seems to me wrong. Qualia may very well be correlated with neuronal processes but they are not the same as neuronal processes. Neuronal processes are subject to description by physics and chemistry, but no amount of detailed description in those terms will answer the questions as to what qualia are like or explain why we perceive them.
We don't know what a rock really is, or an atom, or an electron. We can only observe how they interact with other things and thereby describe their relational properties. Perhaps everything has external and internal aspects. The external properties are those that science can capture and describe - through interactions, in terms of relationships. The internal aspect is the intrinsic essence, it is the reality that is not expressible in the language of interactions and relations. Consciousness, whatever it is, is an aspect of the intrinsic essence of brains.

On further aspect of consciousness is the fact that it takes place in time. Indeed, when I assert that it is always some time in the world, I am extrapolating from the fact that my experiences of the world always takes place in time. But what do I mean by my experiences? I can speak about them scientifically as instances of recordings of information. To speak so, I need not mention consciousness or qualia. But this may be an evasion, because these experiences have aspects that are consciousness of qualia. So my conviction that what is real is real in the present moment is related to my conviction that qualia are real.
 
#6
A field is when you assign each point in space (time) with a quantity, usually in a continuous/smooth way. E.g. temperature is called a scalar field because it assigns a number to each point, velocity of water is a vector field because it assigns a vector to each point. Magnetic field is a vector field. There are also tensor fields, higher dimensional analogues of vector fields. I haven't learned QFT so I don't know the precious definition of electron field, but I heard it assigns something called spinors to each point (no idea what spinors are). I was thinking consciousness might be a field, so it permeates all of space and time and would explain the "oneness with the universe" experienced by NDErs.

I'm hoping for an extended notion of the material world to include consciousness. I used to be a dualist but thinking about an immaterial other worldly soul interacting with physical matter is quite disturbing (e.g. it violates either conservation of energy or entropy increase). I think consciousness might be part of the physical world and no instrument right now (other than the brain) is sensitive enough to pick up the conscious field yet. This is kind of like panpsychism/idealism.
 
#7
Hi,

First, I want to say my position on NDEs is agnostic. The evidence is compelling but not quite strong enough for me to believe, so I'm doing a lot of reading on it. My name is because I have a huge grudge against the inevitable nihilistic philosophy of materialism, even if materialism is right I will still think of life as more than just meat.

In NDEs many people say reality is "vibration". The first time i came across vibration is this NDE http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/arthur-yensen.html At the time I thought the guy is a fraud when he said "master vibration" and every thing is vibration. But this vibration thing gets mentioned fairly consistently by NDErs, e.g. (skip to 20:30)


Eben Alexander mention vibration too.

I remember a NDEr who said the being of light showed her what consciousnes/love is, and she saw a vibrating 3D lattice in the universe (can't remember link). I never made much about this vibration thing, until yesterday when I watched this


and reading this http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2013/08/the-good-vibrations-of-quantum-field-theories/

I was like HOLY SHIT. For people who don't want to watch it, it says each elementary particle (like electron) is a VIBRATION in its respective field (electron is a localized vibration in the electron field).

Oneness of consciousness gets mentioned consistently. NDErs say consciousness/afterlife is a "higher state of vibration". Also Michael Persinger, a confirmed materialist, believes consciousness is a magnetic field from his telepathy experiments


http://skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/


Vibration is definitely not part of western culture's perception of afterlife. If NDEs are hallucinations, it's rather strange it keeps getting mentioned. My questions are:

(1) does eastern culture/buddhism have the the notion of vibration in soul/afterlife?

(2) might consciousness be a "higher state of vibration" like with electrons/quarks? So consciousness is PHYSICAL, just like elementary particles. In the video it says the Higgs field is everywhere but very difficult to detect. Also dark matter is very difficult to detect. Is it possible our instruments just aren't sensitive enough to pickup the conscious field? That why no one ever detected soul particles. So brain really does act like a receiver of the conscious field, and a person's soul is like a (very large) elementary particle in the conscious field


What are your thoughts on this? And any skeptics, please point out what you see wrong. Can someone get Bernardo Kastrup in here? I would like his view on this, if he's willing to comment.
Welcome to the forum! I am always encouraged when newcomers start with an interesting question (such as yours) as their first post!

If you look at the thread about dodgy conventional science, you will understand why I am very wary of 'advanced' physics - such as the Higgs.

I also wonder to what extent various words mean the same thing when they appear in a psychic context, as compared with a scientific context.

Are vibrations measurable in terms of cycles per second.

Is psychic energy measured in Joules, and can it be converted to/from ordinary energy?

etc.

The answer need not be yes or no, because it might be that the conventional physical quantities are a projection of something more complex.

David
 
#8
Welcome to the forum! I am always encouraged when newcomers start with an interesting question (such as yours) as their first post!

If you look at the thread about dodgy conventional science, you will understand why I am very wary of 'advanced' physics - such as the Higgs.

I also wonder to what extent various words mean the same thing when they appear in a psychic context, as compared with a scientific context.

Are vibrations measurable in terms of cycles per second.


Is psychic energy measured in Joules, and can it be converted to/from ordinary energy?

etc.

The answer need not be yes or no, because it might be that the conventional physical quantities are a projection of something more complex.

David

I don't know if they mean the same thing. Like I said I haven't studied QFT so im not really in a position to fully compare. My analogy is meant to be very crude. By vibration of a field I mean the values of the field is fluctuating at each point in spacetime, and there's a pattern to it (high-low-high-low pattern). When we feel vibration in everyday life, e.g. a vibrating table, it's because the position vector field of the surface of the table is fluctuating in value. People in NDEs report a vibrational sensation, like vibration of table/string.

What is true with advanced physics and countless experiments is that the real world is NOT solid. The current model (QFT) says that the real world is made of many vibrating fields, one for each fundamental particle, there's nothing "solid". 19th materialism would have us believe the real world is made of tiny solid billiard balls, and maybe even most neuroscientists right now still take this "solid matter" view of the world. This is where I thought there's an analogy to vibrations reported by NDErs.

I realized my post is very vague, sorry. If I studied QFT properly I'd be able to phrase my post more carefully. And this conscious field thing I describe is extremely vague, I was thinking along the lines of panpsychism/universal consciousness.
 
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