New Book Says NDEs Are All Physical

#1
https://magazine.ucr.edu/3772
A new book out in May suggests NDEs are all physical - our instruments just aren't good enough to show brains still working.
“We may find in some patients we thought had lost all brain function that in fact their brains were functioning at a level undetectable by our current methods. It is possible that this is true of patients who had near-death experiences” says one of the authors Professor John Fischer.
 
#3
That explanation seems like a cop out, the only really interesting part of the article is the claim that
Shahar Arzy "discovered structures in the brain where life reviews can be stored", which I think is the only thing that could be concretely discussed here. I haven't read Arzy's paper, but given the language I am assuming that this is more of a stretch that it is fact... AFAIK, we have yet to figure out how memories are actually "stored", yet we have somebody asserting that they have figured how a so-called life review works. Seems fishy...

And speaking of fishy, why on Earth is Fisher in charge of anything here? He has been pushing his materialist POV in books for years, giving him any authority in this project makes it appear like they had a pre-set goal all along. It's just as bad as giving Bruce Greyson such authority. An initiative of this magnitude needs pragmatic people, not people with well known biases.

Lastly... VR? Really? Give me a break here. VR is nothing more that a copy cat. It may be able to mimic the emotional impact of an experience (which may be questionable since the project has not been going on long enough to gauge long term effects), it can create all of the shock that accompanies a murder, yet this doesnt affect in any way the impact of the real deal. Worst yet, I am having flashback to the "God helmet" and how reports were describing these "wonderful" experiences, yet actual NDEers dismissed them as cheap knockoffs. Did this VR experiment recruit anybody with previous NDEs that could actually compare the two? Because otherwise, this should be considered nothing more than a suggestive influence like the one that movies like The Exorcist of Jaws had on people that were not ready for the experience.

PD- How awfully convenient to leave out NDEs that have veridical or precognitive elements.
 
#5
<snip>

PD- How awfully convenient to leave out NDEs that have veridical or precognitive elements.
You are very correct, Mr Flowers! Indeed, how convenient to leave out the veridical and verified by third parties experiences, which completely contradict the findings of the people running this so-called Immortality Project.

Bad science... I have no other word for this.

And of course, after their book has come out, no doubt the skeptics will shout it from the rooftops: "we knew it all along... all those believers in NDE are fools and NDE'rs themselves have a loose screw in their heads."
So dear NDE'rs -- be prepared for another load of insults.
 
#6
That explanation seems like a cop out, the only really interesting part of the article is the claim that
Shahar Arzy "discovered structures in the brain where life reviews can be stored", which I think is the only thing that could be concretely discussed here. I haven't read Arzy's paper, but given the language I am assuming that this is more of a stretch that it is fact... AFAIK, we have yet to figure out how memories are actually "stored", yet we have somebody asserting that they have figured how a so-called life review works. Seems fishy...

And speaking of fishy, why on Earth is Fisher in charge of anything here? He has been pushing his materialist POV in books for years, giving him any authority in this project makes it appear like they had a pre-set goal all along. It's just as bad as giving Bruce Greyson such authority. An initiative of this magnitude needs pragmatic people, not people with well known biases.

Lastly... VR? Really? Give me a break here. VR is nothing more that a copy cat. It may be able to mimic the emotional impact of an experience (which may be questionable since the project has not been going on long enough to gauge long term effects), it can create all of the shock that accompanies a murder, yet this doesnt affect in any way the impact of the real deal. Worst yet, I am having flashback to the "God helmet" and how reports were describing these "wonderful" experiences, yet actual NDEers dismissed them as cheap knockoffs. Did this VR experiment recruit anybody with previous NDEs that could actually compare the two? Because otherwise, this should be considered nothing more than a suggestive influence like the one that movies like The Exorcist of Jaws had on people that were not ready for the experience.

PD- How awfully convenient to leave out NDEs that have veridical or precognitive elements.
I had several long conversations with a mechanic who had a massive cardiac arrest and was dead for 4 minutes. He had never heard of a near death experience, never read about one and if someone had told him about one he would have said they were crazy (before he had his)

From an out of body experience (floating above the room and his house where his body lay on the floor in full cardiac arrest ) ) he saw the medics shocking him (how many times what they did etc) the paddles shorting out, he saw a back up crew arriving with a new defibrillator (there were no windows on that side of the house) he saw who was driving the ambulance bringing the new equipment, he saw his friend being sick with shock outside.........

I would like to have seen Fisher speak to this man (who has since died)
 
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#7
I had several long conversations with a mechanic who had a massive cardiac arrest and was dead for 4 minutes. He had never heard of a near death experience, never read about one and if someone had told him about one he would have said they were crazy (before he had his)

From an out of body experience (floating above the room and his house where his body lay on the floor in full cardiac arrest ) ) he saw the medics shocking him (how many times what they did etc) the paddles shorting out, he saw a back up crew arriving with a new defibrillator (there were no windows on that side of the house) he saw who was driving the ambulance bringing the new equipment, he saw his friend being sick with shock outside.........

I would like to have seen Fisher speak to this man (who has since died)
Hi, Tim,
I had a student who who had a cardiac arrest caused by drug overdose. While driven to the hospital in an ambulance, he had an NDE with an OBE. While floating above the ambulance, he clearly saw the number 36 on the roof of the vehicle. While in the hospital, he asked his girlfriend to verify the number of the ambulance he was brought into the hospital in. Imagine his astonishment when she told him it was ambulance number 36.
 
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#8
Hi, Tim,
I had a student who who had a cardiac arrest caused by drug overdose. While driven to the hospital in an ambulance, he had an NDE with an OBE. While floating above the ambulance, he clearly saw the number 36 on the roof of the vehicle. While in the hospital, he asked his girlfriend verify the number of the ambulance he was brought into the hospital in. Imagine his astonishment when she told him it was ambulance number 36.
Wonderful report, Enrique! Thanks!

BTW, Enrique, I bet you know this book?

http://www.casadellibro.com/libro-l...as-cercanas-a-la-muerte/9788441535497/2288286
 
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#9
Hi, Tim,
I had a student who who had a cardiac arrest caused by drug overdose. While driven to the hospital in an ambulance, he had an NDE with an OBE. While floating above the ambulance, he clearly saw the number 36 on the roof of the vehicle. While in the hospital, he asked his girlfriend to verify the number of the ambulance he was brought into the hospital in. Imagine his astonishment when she told him it was ambulance number 36.
I don't believe you, Enrique ! :) He must have been fed the information subconsciously or seen it reflected off a window (in a high building) and fed back through the ambulance glass and perceived/noted through partially opened eyes. (My names Kevin Nelson)

Just kidding, that's a remarkable observation, Enrique !
 
#11
I had several long conversations with a mechanic who had a massive cardiac arrest and was dead for 4 minutes. He had never heard of a near death experience, never read about one and if someone had told him about one he would have said they were crazy (before he had his)

From an out of body experience (floating above the room and his house where his body lay on the floor in full cardiac arrest ) ) he saw the medics shocking him (how many times what they did etc) the paddles shorting out, he saw a back up crew arriving with a new defibrillator (there were no windows on that side of the house) he saw who was driving the ambulance bringing the new equipment, he saw his friend being sick with shock outside.........

I would like to have seen Fisher speak to this man (who has since died)
I finished 'Hijack' this afternoon. I don't know what their experience was I'm afraid. It was important to them though.

There is nothing particularly veridical in them, infact quite the opposite, Lizzie specifically says pp138

"I could see myself in stark detail, as if I were watching a film of my body in the water.... ...since what was trapping me was invisible, there was no way out. I couldn't see the life jacket I had been wearing, or the seat I had been sitting in, or any other parts of the plane. All I could see was my fully clothed body jerking about awkwardly in its attempts to free itself from unknown bonds, like a fish on the line."

Fast forward a few pages... pp141

"without doing anything myself, I was pulled towards the moving light. I burst through back into the real world, back into the air. Choking and spluttering, I breathed the rushing air back into my lungs. I was going to be alright. I'd made it. My life jacket had dragged me to the surface and it held me there, allowing me to bob up and down as I tried to take in what was happening, one thing at a time."

Obviously her OBE view of her body was not completely veridical, the life jacket which was actually present when she surfaced, was not visible during her OBE, nor was anything else. So it's difficult to say too much about their experience.

It's also worth while pointing out that the book mentions a scuba diving club was having lessons right underneath where the plane crashed. They saw the shadow above them, thought it was a shark, and surfaced right in the middle of the floating wreckage. They then immediately set about rescuing people.

Amazing experience to read though... had me in tears in a few places.
 
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#12
I don't believe you, Enrique ! :) He must have been fed the information subconsciously or seen it reflected off a window (in a high building) and fed back through the ambulance glass and perceived/noted through partially opened eyes. (My names Kevin Nelson)

Just kidding, that's a remarkable observation, Enrique !
(I'm Linda): 1) somebody had mentioned the number of the ambulance while he was being resucitated 2) he subconsciously deduced the number of the ambulance by the sound of its engine, just like Pam Reynolds deduces the shape and color of the saw by hte sound it made. 3) both, him and his girlfriend are lying, because proponents are naturally predisposed to compulsive lying, alcoholism, shoplifting and bestiality.
 
#13
Have you read that book, Smithy ? Has it been translated into English or Dutch ? I looked him up he seems to be a well respected Physician.
No, I cannot read Spanish. But Titus Rivas can - he is half Spanish, so he referred to that book.
It is an excellent book with very striking veridical cases! I wish it could be translated into English.
This physician got interested after he himself had experienced a profound NDE!:)
 
#15
No, I cannot read Spanish. But Titus Rivas can - he is half Spanish, so he referred to that book.
It is an excellent book with very striking veridical cases! I wish it could be translated into English.
This physician got interested after he himself had experienced a profound NDE!:)
This doctor was on Iker Jimenez's program 3 weeks ago. He is absolutely convinced of the survival of consciousness, based on his own, as well as a multitude of other cases he personally studied.
 
#16
I finished 'Hijack' this afternoon. I don't know what their experience was I'm afraid. It was important to them though.

There is nothing particularly veridical in them, infact quite the opposite, Lizzie specifically says pp138

"I could see myself in stark detail, as if I were watching a film of my body in the water.... ...since what was trapping me was invisible, there was no way out. I couldn't see the life jacket I had been wearing, or the seat I had been sitting in, or any other parts of the plane. All I could see was my fully clothed body jerking about awkwardly in its attempts to free itself from unknown bonds, like a fish on the line."

Fast forward a few pages... pp141

"without doing anything myself, I was pulled towards the moving light. I burst through back into the real world, back into the air. Choking and spluttering, I breathed the rushing air back into my lungs. I was going to be alright. I'd made it. My life jacket had dragged me to the surface and it held me there, allowing me to bob up and down as I tried to take in what was happening, one thing at a time."

Obviously her OBE view of her body was not completely veridical, the life jacket which was actually present when she surfaced, was not visible during her OBE, nor was anything else. So it's difficult to say too much about their experience.

It's also worth while pointing out that the book mentions a scuba diving club was having lessons right underneath where the plane crashed. They saw the shadow above them, thought it was a shark, and surfaced right in the middle of the floating wreckage. They then immediately set about rescuing people.

Amazing experience to read though... had me in tears in a few places.
Surely it was two similar near death experiences, Max ?

Max said > "There is nothing particularly veridical in them, infact quite the opposite, Lizzie specifically says pp138"

It was veridical to themselves as they knew what they had seen, everyone knows when they see themselves (like in a mirror) Here's some more of Lizzie's experience following on from where you left off .........

...........the body was reacting instinctively while the mind was detached and inquisitive.
A mild sensation of fear crept slowly in as I watched myself trying to get free without any commands from my brain. I began to pity myself and my fears deepened. Yet I was impotent because I was outside looking in. Not once did it occur to me that if the body in front of me ceased to move, so would I. That wasn't what was happening.

My mind, my soul whatever constitutes me seemed to be continuing on it's journey whether my body took another breath or not. I felt the same as I always did, just more free. I was simply going to the next place. I had no sense of time or place I was just part of the cycle and that did not make me afraid. There was no need to question it or think about it, I just had to relax and allow what would happen to happen............one paragraph of much the same stuff.follows........

continued.........Once more there was no anxiety despite the total realisation that my life as I knew it was almost over. I felt at peace and yet almost exhilarated by the prospect of the next stage. I felt safe and what could I do about it anyway.

My soul I guess was floating away leaving my body to fend for itself etc .........

The bit about the life jacket is a fair point I suppose but the jacket might have been attached to her loosely above her body where she wasn't looking (it came undone as she went down possibly but retained enough attachment to pull her up...who knows ?)

But if you're going to postulate that somehow the members of a scuba diving club (which neither girl saw under water and I haven't found that page yet)
were responsible for transmitting the images into the girl's brains then surely if she (Lizzie) was wearing a life jacket, wouldn't she have reported seeing it underwater ?
 
#17
No, I cannot read Spanish. But Titus Rivas can - he is half Spanish, so he referred to that book.
It is an excellent book with very striking veridical cases! I wish it could be translated into English.
This physician got interested after he himself had experienced a profound NDE!:)
That's very interesting, Smithy thanks.
 
#18
Surely it was two similar near death experiences, Max ?

Max said > "There is nothing particularly veridical in them, infact quite the opposite, Lizzie specifically says pp138"

It was veridical to themselves as they knew what they had seen, everyone knows when they see themselves (like in a mirror) Here's some more of Lizzie's experience following on from where you left off .........

...........the body was reacting instinctively while the mind was detached and inquisitive.
A mild sensation of fear crept slowly in as I watched myself trying to get free without any commands from my brain. I began to pity myself and my fears deepened. Yet I was impotent because I was outside looking in. Not once did it occur to me that if the body in front of me ceased to move, so would I. That wasn't what was happening.

My mind, my soul whatever constitutes me seemed to be continuing on it's journey whether my body took another breath or not. I felt the same as I always did, just more free. I was simply going to the next place. I had no sense of time or place I was just part of the cycle and that did not make me afraid. There was no need to question it or think about it, I just had to relax and allow what would happen to happen............one paragraph of much the same stuff.follows........

continued.........Once more there was no anxiety despite the total realisation that my life as I knew it was almost over. I felt at peace and yet almost exhilarated by the prospect of the next stage. I felt safe and what could I do about it anyway.

My soul I guess was floating away leaving my body to fend for itself etc .........

The bit about the life jacket is a fair point I suppose but the jacket might have been attached to her loosely above her body where she wasn't looking (it came undone as she went down possibly but retained enough attachment to pull her up...who knows ?)

But if you're going to postulate that somehow the members of a scuba diving club (which neither girl saw under water and I haven't found that page yet)
were responsible for transmitting the images into the girl's brains then surely if she (Lizzie) was wearing a life jacket, wouldn't she have reported seeing it underwater ?
I'm just adding some extra bits you didn't mention which indicate these experiences are more complex... that's all... anyway, I'm knocking a mark off you for not quoting passages which show significance of the life-jacket to her OBE... and only quoting the bits which support your ideas... Lol... ;-)
 
#19
This doctor was on Iker Jimenez's program 3 weeks ago. He is absolutely convinced of the survival of consciousness, based on his own, as well as a multitude of other cases he personally studied.
Can you (as a Spaniard) advise me how to learn Spanish the quickest and easiest way, Enrique ? I took Spanish at school forty odd years ago but I'm afraid I did not apply myself properly which I regret now.
 
#20
I'm just adding some extra bits you didn't mention which indicate these experiences are more complex... that's all... anyway, I'm knocking a mark off you for not quoting passages which show significance of the life-jacket to her OBE... and only quoting the bits which support your ideas... Lol... ;-)
What passage is that, Max, can you pinpoint it ? How is the life jacket relevant to her OBE ?

EDIT we can only listen to the two girls about the circumstances of their own experience but BOTH of them are certain that they experienced genuine OBE's. I also saw them interviewed on Esther Rantzen's talk show and I remember Katie telling a doubting/sceptical member of the audience ........" Once you know, you know ! "
 
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