No God in The Machine

#1
I'm not sure exactly what to take away from this yet, but it was kind of interesting at first glance.

"In this paper, we prove that a process which binds information together irreversibly is non-computable," Maguire explained in an email. "If the human brain is genuinely binding information then it cannot be emulated by artificial intelligence. We've proved that mathematically."
In a recently published paper, "Is Consciousness Computable? Quantifying Integrated Information Using Algorithmic Information Theory," Phil Maguire, co-director of the BSc degree in computational thinking at National University of Ireland, Maynooth, and his co-authors demonstrate that, within the model of consciousness proposed by Giulio Tononi, the integrated information in our brains cannot be modeled by computers.
http://www.informationweek.com/mobile/mobile-applications/no-god-in-the-machine/d/d-id/1251115

http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.0126
 
#4
Something to keep in mind is that computers will not always be comprised of classical bits. Even the idea that transister count in current designs is nearing a cap is brought in to question by yet-newer materials and quantum computing is in the works too.

I must be reading this wrong, because they are assuming lossless memory.
It may be lossless while in the circuit; the idea that a person who received brain damage gets access to other skills, or that someone can be hypnotized to remember the contents of a room they walked through suggest that the information certainly isn't getting actively deleted. That "Attention theory" explanation of consciousness would be compatible as well, memories that don't warrant attention are kept aside for later.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#5
My friend - a Phd in Computer Science - thought it was interesting but not a definitive refutation by any means.

Basically if you accept the premises the conclusion follows swiftly, but the premises are still in dispute so...
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#6
It may be lossless while in the circuit; the idea that a person who received brain damage gets access to other skills, or that someone can be hypnotized to remember the contents of a room they walked through suggest that the information certainly isn't getting actively deleted. That "Attention theory" explanation of consciousness would be compatible as well, memories that don't warrant attention are kept aside for later.
But the idea that memory is completely lossless seems absurd. Recall often causes rewrite with modification. Memories are lost.

~~ Paul
 
#8
Probably going to be awhile before I get a chance to read the arxiv article, but I was pretty much taking it for granted there would be several assumptions the model and the proof would be resting on.

As far as lossless memory ... psi, NDEs, hell most of parapsychology, is awfully suggestive that human memory is lossless. Memory recall, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother problem.
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#9
As far as lossless memory ... psi, NDEs, hell most of parapsychology, is awfully suggestive that human memory is lossless. Memory recall, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother problem.
Completely lossless? Is there some psi experience that involves recalling every memory that you ever stored?

~~ Paul
 
#10
Probably going to be awhile before I get a chance to read the arxiv article, but I was pretty much taking it for granted there would be several assumptions the model and the proof would be resting on.

As far as lossless memory ... psi, NDEs, hell most of parapsychology, is awfully suggestive that human memory is lossless. Memory recall, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother problem.
I'd reconsider human memory is lossless after learning about infantile amnesia.
 
#11
I'd reconsider human memory is lossless after learning about infantile amnesia.
I don't think we know enough to make the distinction whether amnesia is caused from the memories themselves being deleted, or the connection points being misaligned. For example creating an artificial bridge that allows accessing latent knowledge as well as an artificial hippocampus improving recall would suggest a distinction does exist between the memory existing and the memory being accessible. Actually, the study about the artificial hippocampus directly tested the idea of sabotaging that area of the brain to make memory more difficult and then noting that an artificial circuit restored functionality.

So the idea of memory itself being a lossless medium is definitely an open possibility. Recall on the other hand, can definitely be improved or degraded to suit. Additionally, attempts to debunk psi phenomenon using the cryptomnesia argument rely on the subconscious still having access to every memory every seen. If its possible to memory to be deleted (and not just a loss of connectivity) then the cryptomnesia argument ceases to be valid.
 
#13
I don't think we know enough to make the distinction whether amnesia is caused from the memories themselves being deleted, or the connection points being misaligned. For example creating an artificial bridge that allows accessing latent knowledge as well as an artificial hippocampus improving recall would suggest a distinction does exist between the memory existing and the memory being accessible. Actually, the study about the artificial hippocampus directly tested the idea of sabotaging that area of the brain to make memory more difficult and then noting that an artificial circuit restored functionality.

So the idea of memory itself being a lossless medium is definitely an open possibility. Recall on the other hand, can definitely be improved or degraded to suit. Additionally, attempts to debunk psi phenomenon using the cryptomnesia argument rely on the subconscious still having access to every memory every seen. If its possible to memory to be deleted (and not just a loss of connectivity) then the cryptomnesia argument ceases to be valid.
ok. Then dementia.
 
#14
ok. Then dementia.
How is dementia special? Some patients have moments of clarity, which implies that only the connection is broken.

There is no magic or immaterialism necessary to make an argument that memories are not actually deleted; if I unplug a SATA cable from a hard drive I can no longer access that data, same as if the cable gets a defect or the mainboard's controller has a problem. When you plug the drive back in you can get the files.
 
#15
How is dementia special? Some patients have moments of clarity, which implies that only the connection is broken.

There is no magic or immaterialism necessary to make an argument that memories are not actually deleted; if I unplug a SATA cable from a hard drive I can no longer access that data, same as if the cable gets a defect or the mainboard's controller has a problem. When you plug the drive back in you can get the files.
And many more people suffering dementia never have moments of clarity. Rare cases of terminal lucidity indicates you likely haven't experienced dementia firsthand. Having experienced Alzheimer's destruction on a family members mind I am absolutely confident that memories are completely lost. You have to prove the brain stores memories just like a hard drive. Good luck trying.
 
#16
@steve001

And many more people suffering dementia never have moments of clarity. Rare cases of terminal lucidity indicates you likely haven't experienced dementia firsthand. Having experienced Alzheimer's destruction on a family members mind I am absolutely confident that memories are completely lost. You have to prove the brain stores memories just like a hard drive. Good luck trying.
I have also experienced strong dementia firsthand (family member) and I would disagree. For me it looks like patients just aren't able to articulate or at least that seems to be a problem. My familiy member isn't able to speak (apart from "yes" and "no" once a month or so). But sometimes she looks and acts like she had understood it. From time to time she seems to remember people and another time not. Of course I can not prove that and it's just a subjective impression. I am not so confident that memories are completely lost. But maybe you can prove that...:).
 
#17
@steve001



I have also experienced strong dementia firsthand (family member) and I would disagree. For me it looks like patients just aren't able to articulate or at least that seems to be a problem. My familiy member isn't able to speak (apart from "yes" and "no" once a month or so). But sometimes she looks and acts like she had understood it. From time to time she seems to remember people and another time not. Of course I can not prove that and it's just a subjective impression. I am not so confident that memories are completely lost. But maybe you can prove that...:).
Stay tune for the advanced stages of her dementia, then get back to me and tell me what you think.
There is a condition called hyperthymesia aka (Hyperthymestic syndrome and highly superior autobiographical memory). A small number of people have this. It's the ability to recall nearly everything that's happen to oneself. But even the people with superior memory can't recall everything and recall events that happen in early childhood as infantile amnesia indicates. The tv show Unforgettable is based upon the real life American actress Marilu Henner.

I watched this documentary many years ago. Here's a salient part to this topic of forgetting. The person interviewing the old woman is the daughter.
 
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#18
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21764150

We review a range of terminal lucidity cases in order to encourage investigation of the mechanisms involved and possible insights into both the neuroscience of memory and cognition at the end of life and treatment of terminal illness. These examples include case reports of patients suffering from brain abscesses, tumors, strokes, meningitis, dementia or Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia, and affective disorders. Several of these accounts suggest that during terminal lucidity, memory and cognitive abilities may function by neurologic processes different from those of the normal brain
Just noticed not available at link above, but you can get it here:

http://www.deanradin.com/evidence/Nahm2011.pdf

Just like with a math proof, all you need is one counter example to prove something is not true. In our case, the notion that "memory is irrevocably loss" is challenged by terminal lucidity.
 
#19
@steve001

Stay tune for the advanced stages of her dementia, then get back to me and tell me what you think.
No remote diagnosis please. The stage is very advanced, that wasn't a exaggeration with "yes and no once a month". Sadly she can't even eat and walk..But nevertheless there is something there from time to time. I don't want to play the "who has the most demented familiy member" game and accept that you just disagree. But dementia is not a good example in the case of my familiy member.
 
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#20
As far as lossless memory ... psi, NDEs, hell most of parapsychology, is awfully suggestive that human memory is lossless. Memory recall, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother problem.
I was thinking that much of parapsychology depends upon memory loss through overwriting by feedback. For example, Eban Alexander's 'memory' of seeing his unknown sister is overwritten by the photographic image he sees later of her. Most (all?) of the "remarkably accurate" events only occur under conditions of feedback.

This would be testable, I suspect. Comparisons could be made between brain activations when exposed to original vs. overwritten memories.

Linda
 
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