Non Interaction with the enviroment during the NDE as Evidence for its reality

#1
I wont go into to much detail and this is only one of the very specific points that truly point to the NDE being you truly in another body apart form your regular physical vehicle. Take the easily overlooked fact that no one, i mean NO ONE during the OBE during the NDE have ever been able to interact with the environment, they speak of walking through doors, people not hearing or seeing them, putting hands through doors and being immaterial.

what possible explanation could account for such a strange yet persistent consistency during the OBE/NDE. what psychological model, hallucination model etc could ever account for this? especially considering that many people aren't even sure they've died so they don't have a preconceived conception about the state.

let me state it more like this, if someone could find just 1 , 1 report of an ndeer having an obe and being able to actually interact with the environment or people physically then and only then would the skeptics have any credence, i mean wow think deeply on this guys.
 
#2
I suspect we don't hear about it often because during an NDE people find themselves in an environment totally different than what they just experienced for the last several decades in a physical body. (However, I do believe there are some reports along those lines out there) They're in a different realm they need to figure out again, rather than being adepts who know how to "travel the land". Besides, if the mind is capable of PK now, there is no reason it shouldn't be capable of PK and interacting with the physical environment while free of the body too. If anything, being free of the body may eventually give PK a boost. I think that also implies an NDE'er interacting with the environment doesn't necessarily give a skeptical argument any credence.
 
#3
I suspect we don't hear about it often because during an NDE people find themselves in an environment totally different than what they just experienced for the last several decades in a physical body. (However, I do believe there are some reports along those lines out there) They're in a different realm they need to figure out again, rather than being adepts who know how to "travel the land". Besides, if the mind is capable of PK now, there is no reason it shouldn't be capable of PK and interacting with the physical environment while free of the body too. If anything, being free of the body may eventually give PK a boost. I think that also implies an NDE'er interacting with the environment doesn't necessarily give a skeptical argument any credence.
no your not seeing the point friend, im talking of when they are still in this physical just outside or in the vicinity of there own physical body, not when they are in any type of astral realm,in which , of course we can expect to interact with the environment, i am going ot guarantee you and ohter now that you simply will not find eve a single report of an nde'er during the obe state while still in this physical reality and generally in close proximity to the body(but no always as attested by Howard storms nde where he was miles away but still walked straight through a telephone pole!!)

do you see the difference?
 
#4
I wont go into to much detail and this is only one of the very specific points that truly point to the NDE being you truly in another body apart form your regular physical vehicle. Take the easily overlooked fact that no one, i mean NO ONE during the OBE during the NDE have ever been able to interact with the environment, they speak of walking through doors, people not hearing or seeing them, putting hands through doors and being immaterial.

what possible explanation could account for such a strange yet persistent consistency during the OBE/NDE. what psychological model, hallucination model etc could ever account for this? especially considering that many people aren't even sure they've died so they don't have a preconceived conception about the state.

let me state it more like this, if someone could find just 1 , 1 report of an ndeer having an obe and being able to actually interact with the environment or people physically then and only then would the skeptics have any credence, i mean wow think deeply on this guys.
Yeah, actually that's a very good point. We can interact with anyone and anything inside of hallucinations and dreams. Yet one of the persistent pieces of the NDE puzzle is that there is a very definite delineation between who you CAN interact with, (the dead or incorporeal) and who you CANNOT interact with (the living.)
 
#5
Yeah, actually that's a very good point. We can interact with anyone and anything inside of hallucinations and dreams. Yet one of the persistent pieces of the NDE puzzle is that there is a very definite delineation between who you CAN interact with, (the dead or incorporeal) and who you CANNOT interact with (the living.)
exactly, it seems to coincidental that in a state where it is claimed we are no longer in our physical bodies and are possessed or a more subtle body, we cant interact with our normal environment. I mean, the scary thing is, there seems to be literally zero evidence to th contrary, you'd think if this was dream, brain comfort mechanism, hallucination or anything else there one be 1, just 1 case where some is floating around and can indeed talk to the doctors or can touch the walls etc. I would genuinely love to see a skeptic try to explain this consistency with some model other then the simplest one. i.e that we survive the death of our bodies.
 
#6
I am generally not visually conscious of my body much of the time whilst I am wakeful, I particularly notice this when I'm concentrating. Looking at the monitor on which I am typing this for instance, the world has disappeared and I am only visually conscious of the letters and cursor on the screen. The second I think about where my hands are, they pop back into my visual awareness.

It makes much more sense to me that rather than something leaving the body during the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, that the conscious visual awareness of third parties can sometimes temporarily interact with the patients energy compromised brain.

Also, thinking about what you have said, when we dream, motor movement is generally disabled (apart from our eyes). The presumption seems to be that we are actually acting out our dream, and if our dream movements were not disabled we would actually be moving.

When I think about the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, I note that the cortex EEG becomes dysfunctional, the brain becomes energy compromised, neuron firing is dramatically reduced.

The brain would seem to lose access to it's interactive cortex layer, the part I liken a bit to it's input/output layer, where sensory input comes in, and motor control goes out. Which is somewhat different to dreaming where it's presumed that the brain is functional, and movement is deliberately disabled.
 
#7
It makes much more sense to me that rather than something leaving the body during the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, that the conscious visual awareness of third parties can sometimes temporarily interact with the patients energy compromised brain.
I don't know why you keep promoting this pet theory when it doesn't agree with what is actually reported during an NDE. For example the person may report something which was not within the conscious awareness of any other person. That is the motivation behind the CNERIC research.

Though your posts seem intelligent and well-motivated, to deliberately ignore actual NDE reports in order to promote a theory which doesn't fit the facts seems to have little in common with the scientific method.
 
#8
I am generally not visually conscious of my body much of the time whilst I am wakeful, I particularly notice this when I'm concentrating. Looking at the monitor on which I am typing this for instance, the world has disappeared and I am only visually conscious of the letters and cursor on the screen. The second I think about where my hands are, they pop back into my visual awareness.

It makes much more sense to me that rather than something leaving the body during the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, that the conscious visual awareness of third parties can sometimes temporarily interact with the patients energy compromised brain.

Also, thinking about what you have said, when we dream, motor movement is generally disabled (apart from our eyes). The presumption seems to be that we are actually acting out our dream, and if our dream movements were not disabled we would actually be moving.

When I think about the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, I note that the cortex EEG becomes dysfunctional, the brain becomes energy compromised, neuron firing is dramatically reduced.

The brain would seem to lose access to it's interactive cortex layer, the part I liken a bit to it's input/output layer, where sensory input comes in, and motor control goes out. Which is somewhat different to dreaming where it's presumed that the brain is functional, and movement is deliberately disabled.

I have no idea what your trying to say here friend, but i get the impression your are one of the skeptics, although it seems your just plucking at straws, i mean, to suggest a theory in which the third partiy eyes is interacting with a brain(that you admit is "energy compromised " so how then could it interact in a meaningful way) is to ignore my point, the non interaction point, you seem to have missed that.

really think about how much this speaks to the actual reality of experience a different type of body, can you advance a theory to explain the as yet unbroken consistency of this phenomenon of not being able to interact with the environment or those in it? its mind blowing and perfectly fits with the theroy that indeed the self can exist outside the body in a "non corporeal" form and therefore can no longer interact with the here and now . i mean think, if it was a hallucination of sorts, a dying brain comfort mechanism etc then we would expect instances of non interaction to be minimal if any at all, since it just makes no sense to be consistent in a hallucination or even a dream etc
 
#9
I had not thought of this, but I agree with you. The fact that NDEs converge on the aspect of interacting with deceased loved ones, but not to interact with the environment and living beings suggests that NDEs are not hallucinations, because if NDEs were hallucinations where both deceased loved beings as the environment and living beings are neural constructs, then one might expect that in some NDEs had interaction with living beings and not others, but this is not what happens.

We can also open another line of argument: those who believe that NDEs are caused entirely by the nervous system have to explain how NDEs have appeared in biological evolution. The best answer is I think NDEs have appeared to increase the chances of survival of the dying. However, it makes no sense that aspects of NDEs as the vision of 360 degrees or perceive the environment from all perspectives at once are the product of evolution for the survival of the individual, unless these aspects show us a metabiological reality.
 
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#10
I am generally not visually conscious of my body much of the time whilst I am wakeful, I particularly notice this when I'm concentrating. Looking at the monitor on which I am typing this for instance, the world has disappeared and I am only visually conscious of the letters and cursor on the screen. The second I think about where my hands are, they pop back into my visual awareness.

It makes much more sense to me that rather than something leaving the body during the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, that the conscious visual awareness of third parties can sometimes temporarily interact with the patients energy compromised brain.

Also, thinking about what you have said, when we dream, motor movement is generally disabled (apart from our eyes). The presumption seems to be that we are actually acting out our dream, and if our dream movements were not disabled we would actually be moving.

When I think about the verifiable OBE portion of the NDE during cardiac arrest, I note that the cortex EEG becomes dysfunctional, the brain becomes energy compromised, neuron firing is dramatically reduced.

The brain would seem to lose access to it's interactive cortex layer, the part I liken a bit to it's input/output layer, where sensory input comes in, and motor control goes out. Which is somewhat different to dreaming where it's presumed that the brain is functional, and movement is deliberately disabled.
This has no explanatory power. We are discussing the difference between a hallucination, where it is possible to interact with everything, vs. an NDE, where interactions are very specifically limited in precise ways. This is different from being able to move.
 
#11
I had not thought of this, but I agree with you. The fact that NDEs converge on the aspect of interacting with deceased loved ones, but not to interact with the environment and living beings suggests that NDEs are not hallucinations, because if NDEs were hallucinations where both deceased loved beings as the environment and living beings are neural constructs, then one might expect that in some NDEs had interaction with living beings and not others, but this is not what happens.

We can also open another line of argument: those who believe that NDEs are caused entirely by the nervous system have to explain how NDEs have appeared in biological evolution. The best answer is I think NDEs have appeared to increase the chances of survival of the dying. However, it makes no sense that aspects of NDEs as the vision of 360 degrees or perceive the environment from all perspectives at once are the product of evolution for the survival of the individual, unless these aspects show us a metabiological reality.
great points for sure. and as a firm critic and what you might call "disbeliever" in the explanatory power of evolution, i don't see the link between evolution and ndes, even the language like "it appeared to increase the changes of survival" accidentally misleads and gives the impression that it has some kind of consciousness and goes towards some goal. But anyway , your point about the 360 vision is a great one, its a very consistent feature of both ndes and obes, thanks
 
#12
...is to ignore my point, the non interaction point, you seem to have missed that.
Obviously I haven't made my self very clear. The areas of the brain which deal with motor control are non-functional in the circumstances I mentioned. So it might not be possible to integrate what little third party external sensory data that is available to the patients brain during the OBE experience, with these motor control areas of the brain, preventing these areas from forming part of the experience.

This would be similar to the typical crisis type apparition hallucination where people often report that they generally don't get to touch the apparition, and only later realise how odd that was (although I accept there are a few cases where they do, but it's much less commonly reported to have this more immersive crisis apparition experience).

Additionally as I pointed out, we don't generally bring these types of information into our conscious awareness once learnt. i.e. I don't think about how to wipe my bottom when I've been to the loo etc... I just generally do it on auto pilot once the skill has been learnt, and am often thinking about completely different things.
 
#13
For example the person may report something which was not within the conscious awareness of any other person. That is the motivation behind the CNERIC research.
If you come across any verifiable OBE portions of the NDE, which include hidden, secret and real-time information let me know.
 
#14
If you come across any verifiable OBE portions of the NDE, which include hidden, secret and real-time information let me know.
You don't sound like you're ready to do real research and question your own assumptions just yet. This has already been done. It's also not our job to explain all this to you. If you're going to go off spouting theories and making assumptions, you have to have done your homework first. Why should we take you seriously? What are you bringing to the discussion besides empty speculation and knee jerk doubt?
 
#15
Obviously I haven't made my self very clear. The areas of the brain which deal with motor control are non-functional in the circumstances I mentioned. So it might not be possible to integrate what little third party external sensory data that is available to the patients brain during the OBE experience, with these motor control areas of the brain, preventing these areas from forming part of the experience.

This would be similar to the typical crisis type apparition hallucination where people often report that they generally don't get to touch the apparition, and only later realise how odd that was (although I accept there are a few cases where they do, but it's much less commonly reported to have this more immersive crisis apparition experience).

Additionally as I pointed out, we don't generally bring these types of information into our conscious awareness once learnt. i.e. I don't think about how to wipe my bottom when I've been to the loo etc... I just generally do it on auto pilot once the skill has been learnt, and am often thinking about completely different things.

Nope its not similar at all, because in such cases the person never reports not being able to interact with the environment, and as you pointed out in some cases, they can indeed interact with the apparition, and the brain has nohtign to do with it since its flat lining, in the case of ndes there isnt even 1 , read it, 1 case where you will read that the person floating around the room can ever interact with the environs or those in it, i mean, that is serious stuff, that just simply does not fit any model except the simple explanation that we indeed can exist in another more subtle state or body.
 
#16
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Nope its not similar at all, because in such cases the person never reports not being able to interact with the environment, and as you pointed out in some cases, they can indeed interact with the apparition, and the brain has nohtign to do with it since its flat lining, in the case of ndes there isnt even 1 , read it, 1 case where you will read that the person floating around the room can ever interact with the environs or those in it, i mean, that is serious stuff, that just simply does not fit any model except the simple explanation that we indeed can exist in another more subtle state or body.
also inherent in your assumption of th brain producing it and the motor parts somehow conveniently affected, is the assumption that a hugely compromised brain can produce experiences much more vivid then reality as well as consistently throwing up hallucinations of dead loved ones, a barrier, a reluctant return, speaking telepathically, none of these things math with any hypothesis except the survival one
 
#18
...in the case of ndes there isnt even 1 , read it, 1 case where you will read that the person floating around the room can ever interact with the environs or those in it...
Yes, that's why I was attempting to point out one difference with dreams, where it seems the motor portion of the cortex must be involved in the dream process, else there would be no need to disable our physical movement during dreaming. Presumably in the case of cardiac arrest the motor portion of the cortex is dysfunctional and might not be able to be integrated into the experience...

...and also why I was pointing out that our conscious awareness does not necessarily include this type of information. Hence it might not be included in the conscious awareness of third parties. Most particularly when they are concentrating on saving the experients life.

I'm merely pointing out other possible reasons for the observations you made in your initial post. I'm lucky enough to have had a unique OBE, which was verified and witnessed, and the best way I've been able to understand my own experience is by considering an interaction with a single third party.
 
#19
no your not seeing the point friend, im talking of when they are still in this physical just outside or in the vicinity of there own physical body, not when they are in any type of astral realm,in which , of course we can expect to interact with the environment, i am going ot guarantee you and ohter now that you simply will not find eve a single report of an nde'er during the obe state while still in this physical reality and generally in close proximity to the body(but no always as attested by Howard storms nde where he was miles away but still walked straight through a telephone pole!!)

do you see the difference?
Not really. I think the difference doesn't really exist, it only seems like it does, imho.

A neutrino can go through a light years worth of lead and still not interact with the lead, but it CAN interact with the physical environment, it's just very subtle about it. I guess I am trying to say that just because somebody in a veridical OBE can pass through a wall does not have to necessarily preclude any interaction with the environment, especially if the mind chooses to do so. I still don't see how it can be justified that PK is possible in the body, possible in some "astral realm", but not possible in between?

I also don't see how it establishes, or negates the reality of an NDE., either. If somebody could go knock the target off the top of the bed of another patients room during the AWARE study and come back and accurately tell us about it, I think that would be more impressive than a visual hit alone ;-)

Also, to relate this to the alien abduction phenomenon, the aliens come in through the walls, physically take people who then all exit through the walls together.

I just think there is more complexity to all this.
 
#20
I'm lucky enough to have had a unique OBE, which was verified and witnessed, and the best way I've been able to understand my own experience is by considering an interaction with a single third party.
A single case is not sufficient to conclude this, there have been experts OBErs who have spent years experienced OBEs and they have not concluded something similar.

I think there are some successful remote viewing experiments that can not be interpreted as telepathy / obtain the information of another mind.

Also in some NDEs are encounters with loved ones who are died but believed they had live, a veridical information that no living human being around of NDErs knew.
 
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