Mod+ Panpsychism - Strawson, Koch, and more! [Resources] [Panpsychism]

#41
Non-compsositional panpsychism is something Goff came up with. Best I understand it is some kind of mental particle acts, possibly via superposition, to guide the behavior of the mind.

Proto-consciousness...honestly I'm not even sure what that is - one of my issues with panpsychism. MacDonald refers to it as a kind of basic awareness he identifies with Eastern transcendental states, but it seems to me this term is a placeholder more than a well-conceived idea.
I suspect it will eventually become the dominant paradigm. I don't like the term "panpsychism" because I don't think that basic states have a "psyche." if an atom is experiential, I certainly don't take it to be capable of processing its experientiality.

Proto-consciousness, to me, could be conceived in one of two different ways. Either it is not itself conscious, even basically, but inherently *must lead to* something that is conscious, kind of like a sleeper waking up. The second possibility is that it is very basically aware already, but without any inherent memory, temporal processing, "self" or "reflection" etc. I've used before the example of light before it encounters any system of collision or reflection to describe the first option. The second option is more like the Basic Awareness in certain strands of Buddhism. It would be difficult to say whether this proto-consciousness is emboded in "atoms" or whether it is a general background to the experiential world in the fashion of the vacuum field.
 
#42
Pansychyism is worthless, it's baseless, not one scrap of evidence to support it.
I disagree, completely. I think the mind matter interaction studies and the GCP data is powerful evidence that there is something about matter that has some kind of proto-awareness in it. And the attention of living things sends ripples through it.
 
#43
I disagree, completely. I think the mind matter interaction studies and the GCP data is powerful evidence that there is something about matter that has some kind of proto-awareness in it. And the attention of living things sends ripples through it.
Biological cells have consciousness. When they die, they don't float around like zombie cells. That proves that pansychyism is false. If pansychism was true, then there would be no need for cellular biology.
 
#44
Biological cells have consciousness. When they die, they don't float around like zombie cells. That proves that pansychyism is false. If pansychism was true, then there would be no need for cellular biology.
Well, if those cells are conscious, then the atoms inside must have some kind of proto-awareness.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#45
Honestly, if I had to choose between pansyycism and Christianity, I would choose Christianity in a heart beat. Pansychism as a philosophy to live by is completely worthless. As a provable fact, it is completely worthless without even a rumor of evidence. Islam is better than pansychism. Hell, even Satanism is better than pansychism; at least it's tribal, and you have a small chance to summon some demonic entity just for fun; oh, and then there is the group sex.

Pansychyism is worthless, it's baseless, not one scrap of evidence to support it. Even astrology has more evidence than pansychism.
Panpsychism is a metaphysics, Christianity is religion. Berkeley and Teilhard were both Christians, but the former was an Idealist and the latter was a Panpsychist.
 
#47
Panpsychism is a metaphysics, Christianity is religion. Berkeley and Teilhard were both Christians, but the former was an Idealist and the latter was a Panpsychist.
The evidence is telling us that Panpsychism is false. The NDE experience evidence is telling us that Christianity is true as one possible path, but not the only path.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#48
False. Consciousness comes from beyond the physical, beyond the standard model.
You might enjoy Morhroff's Spiritual Physics.

His ideas are probably the closest to yours I've seen from a physicist. Let me know what you think.

The evidence is telling us that Panpsychism is false. The NDE experience evidence is telling us that Christianity is true as one possible path, but not the only path.
AFAIK that evidence is still in contention? Also, not clear on how one could be certain panpsychism is false. Personally I would think any smoking gun for telepathy or PK is enough but there are likely explanations available.
 
#49
You might enjoy Morhroff's Spiritual Physics.

His ideas are probably the closest to yours I've seen from a physicist. Let me know what you think.



AFAIK that evidence is still in contention? Also, not clear on how one could be certain panpsychism is false. Personally I would think any smoking gun for telepathy or PK is enough but there are likely explanations available.
Personally, I'd say smoking gun evidence for PK would be confirmation almost of panpsychism
 
#50
Panpsychism is the belief that rocks have thoughts.
You might enjoy Morhroff's Spiritual Physics.

His ideas are probably the closest to yours I've seen from a physicist. Let me know what you think.



AFAIK that evidence is still in contention? Also, not clear on how one could be certain panpsychism is false. Personally I would think any smoking gun for telepathy or PK is enough but there are likely explanations available.
The furniture in my room are discussing the merits of pansychiism. The TV believes it, but the couch thinks its bunk.
 
#52
Personally, I'd say smoking gun evidence for PK would be confirmation almost of panpsychism
I disagree. The psychokinesis only proves that people can affect the external world without the motor apparatus. I do not know where you get panpsychism. For example: there is a poltergeist in a house, the cabinets open spontaneously, cups flying without anyone shed, etc. Does this indicate that the cabinets and cups are protoconscious? No, only indicates an unknown cause that affects them and in fact most of the poltergeists only occur when a teen is present, so that they are probably a unintentional cause of the anomalies, although there are exceptions to this pattern.
 
#53
Psychokinesis (if it exists) would simply demonstrate what nature demonstrates already in our own selves, with the ability to raise an arm or leg, or more generally, with the ability to order "matter" into forms.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#54
It just seems to me that Panpsychism already has a Combination Problem - how do bits of proto-consciousness become consciousness. Add Psi to that and I can't help but feel you've created a nigh impossible task.

I suspect it will eventually become the dominant paradigm. I don't like the term "panpsychism" because I don't think that basic states have a "psyche." if an atom is experiential, I certainly don't take it to be capable of processing its experientiality.

Proto-consciousness, to me, could be conceived in one of two different ways. Either it is not itself conscious, even basically, but inherently *must lead to* something that is conscious, kind of like a sleeper waking up. The second possibility is that it is very basically aware already, but without any inherent memory, temporal processing, "self" or "reflection" etc. I've used before the example of light before it encounters any system of collision or reflection to describe the first option. The second option is more like the Basic Awareness in certain strands of Buddhism. It would be difficult to say whether this proto-consciousness is emboded in "atoms" or whether it is a general background to the experiential world in the fashion of the vacuum field.
I agree that it'll definitely become the dominant paradigm in the near future, though I suspect more contention than we're seeing now among people interested in this sort of thing.

On the idea that the proto-consciousness needs to be awakened - does every particle have full blown consciousness that is merely dormant, or is full consciousness only achieved in the combination of things?

The second option seems more tenable to me, though I think it runs into the problem that consciousness being extant suggests the wide variety of quale are extant, and it's not clear how to get anger/lust/love/boredom/meaningfulness/etc out of basic awareness.

But of course every -ism has its problems, and I doubt we as a species will make much progress figuring it out though I expect a variety of tangible successes along the way. For example the IIT theory of Koch & Tononi might help in the care of coma patients.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#55
Panpsychism as Paradigm

...the environmental crisis is pointing to a misalliance between humanity and its world. Panpsychism has thus for me been a project of metaphysical rehabilitation conceived within the discourse of environmental philosophy.The argument that I shall put forward in this chapter however focuses strictly on the metaphysical rather than the environmental. The gist of the argument is that a holistic or cosmological version of panpsychism, according to which the universe as a whole is the ultimate locus of mind, or of mind-‐like properties, can function as a rival to materialism, materialism being understood as the view which denies that mind, or any mind-‐like property, inheres in an essential way in matter or in other fundamental elements of physical reality.Moreover, I shall suggest that, in relation to materialism, cosmological panpsychism functions not merely as a rival theory but as a rival paradigm. I make this suggestion because materialism generates a number of intractable anomalies, anomalies that have become so entrenched in the philosophical tradition of the West as to seem inevitable. We perhaps forget that they are anomalies, and treat them instead as the very substance of metaphysics. It might be in consequence of this conflation that we have concluded that metaphysical questions are in principle undecidable, and consequently not worth pursuing. Tackling these intractable questions from the viewpoint of an alternative paradigm might then have implications for metaphysics itself...
I shall address four specific metaphysical anomalies.In each case I shall argue that these are anomalies for materialism but are far less problematic for cosmological panpsychism.The arguments as I present them here will be very abbreviated but can be found in more developed form elsewhere in my work.

1.Problem of realism, or of the appearance/reality distinction
2.Problem of why the universe hangs together, or, more narrowly, the problem of causation
3.Problem of why there is something rather than nothing
4.Problem of the origin of the universe, or of a beginning to time

Of course, the hard problem of consciousness, which I have not listed, is also a preeminent anomaly for the materialist paradigm, an anomaly which panpsychism can make some claim to solve. But if it can be shown that materialism harbours other anomalies,and that cosmological panpsychism solves, or at least softens, these, this independent evidence for panpsychism strengthens it as a contender in the case of the hard problem. Moreover, a sense of the cosmological reach and origins of consciousness will provide a new and illuminating context for the investigation of our own human consciousness. In both these respects then exploring cosmological panpsychism as paradigm is relevant to the hard problem of consciousness
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#56
Why Has the West Failed to Embrace Panpsychism?

To solve this problem of contingency or arbitrariness, and hence this failure of intelligibility, at the heart of science, the postulate of causality was tacitly assumed. The universals of science were underpinned by causal necessity. The forces posited by physics were vectors of a causal power that simply made things that were otherwise entirely arbitrary happen. Physics was a theater of force, of coercion, because otherwise there was no way of accounting for the fact that things happened as they did. But Hume of course exploded this device, by revealing that the principle of causation is neither logically necessary nor detectable by observation. The whole edifice of science is held in place by it but it is, in fact, a metaphysical fraud or sleight of hand.
...There may be alternative modes of thought, and indeed of explanation, which do not share this structure—the structure of theoria—and do enable us to see both how and why reality itself hangs together.

Before introducing an example of such a mode of thought, I would like to spell out in a little more detail how the conundrum of causation at the heart of science is a consequence, at a subtler level, of the mirroring maneuver at the base of theory. In this mirroring maneuver the mind, as we have seen, projects ‘the world’ as an idealized totality onto a kind of mental screen and in the process differentiates itself, in just the kind of way Kant detailed in his analysis of the transcendental unity of apperception, into a knowing subject, on the one hand, and the world as object or known, on the other. Since this object is, despite its world-content, mentally a passive construct of the subject, it will be understood by the subject to be, in an ultimate sense, inert. In the explanatory scenario of theoria, self-activity,and hence motive power, will always be intuited to lie outside the object.The object by definition, qua object, lacks the power of self-creation or self-animation. It will for this reason seem intuitively natural, from the perspective of the subject, to posit an external source of motive power for the world, a Prime Mover or, as secular substitute for such a Mover in science, a principle of causation, which is, as we have seen, a principle of coercion or force. The laws of nature are held in place by the arbitrary but coercive force of causation.

So, to continue the recapitulation, science, the ultimate expression(so far) of theoria, is inevitably a physicalism or materialism...
It was a brilliant and arresting article by Francois Jullien (2002), “Did philosophers have to become fixated on Truth?”, that first sensitized me to the possible contingency of truth as the goal of cognition. And it was the meta-level contrast Jullien drew between the figure of the Greek philosopher and that of the Chinese sage that somehow made this contingency of truth asa goal plain. Jullien’s arguments were different from those I have offered here; he did not posit theoria as a distinct category of cognitive process nor did he, accordingly, seek to demonstrate that dualism originated in such a process. But his aim was, like mine, to show that truth, the goal of the Greek philosopher, was an historical and cultural discovery. In seeking truth, the Greek philosopher was seeking a kind of final solution to the riddle of existence, an account of the nature of things that was fixed and eternal despite the perishability of things themselves. Truth in this sense, Jullien emphasized, was exclusive: if a view were true it necessarily excluded all competing views. It was in this respect that the Greek philosopher stood in marked contrast to the Chinese sage, who, Jullien observed, set out not to explain the world but to adapt himself to it. The sage sought to identify the tendencies or dispositions at work in particular situations in order to harness those tendencies or dispositions to his own best advantage. To this end he remained open to all points of view instead of insisting on a single viewpoint(‘truth’) exclusive of others. In describing the sage as seeking ‘congruence’ with reality, Jullien seems to be implying that the thinking of the sage remained inextricable from agency rather than becoming, like the thinking of the Greeks, an end in itself.
 
#59
I'm still leaning in the direction of a Holy Spirit and that Spirits have consciousness, the ability to experience. If it turns out that there is a universal dynamic quantum entanglement, then all bets are off.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#60
I'm still leaning in the direction of a Holy Spirit and that Spirits have consciousness, the ability to experience. If it turns out that there is a universal dynamic quantum entanglement, then all bets are off.
Well...

now it appears this was only part of the story as demonstrated in a recent paper by a team from the Institute for Quantum Studies at Chapman University co-authored by Yakir Aharonov, Fabrizio Colombo, Sandu Popescu, Irene Sabadini, Daniele Struppa, and Jeff Tollaksen. They introduced a new kind of quantum connectivity between particles which transcends these limitations. This connectivity is happening all the time on a much bigger, cosmic scale.

“With the new kind of quantum linkages which we have introduced, the particles don’t have to interact in the past. In fact, they have no idea that the other particle even existed,” said Jeff Tollaksen, Director of the Institute for Quantum Studies at Chapman University.
 
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