Penny Sartori talks with Tibor Putnoki about his NDE OBE

#5
Thanks for posting that Max, I've been through it all now. First, let's give the sceptics their due, the guy might have made it all up or he's mad etc. I don't for a moment believe that but it's possible, I guess and they would likely prefer that explanation.

As an NDE, it's just about got the lot, OBE's (near and far) with veridical verified information, (he didn't mention a tunnel or if he did I missed it) life review, a border, city of light, X ray vision (George Rodonaia, Al Sulivan), interference with electrical flelds etc etc

The part that interests me the most is the OBE, particularly the OBE at a distance (assuming it's not a fabrication) . I've been talking to a guy who had the very same thing (as I've said) and he's got witnesses, so there it is again. It's not so uncommon, that's my point.
 
#6
As an NDE, it's just about got the lot
It also has the transformative aspect (often referred to by van Lommel) such that the person is changed afterwards, and the emphasis on the idea of love. These too are typical NDE features.
 
#7
Copied from a blog with thanks

There were several very interesting features of the NDE - as Tibor was on a life support system in intensive care at the time his physical functions, or lack of them, were monitored and therefore externally verifiable. He was without a heart beat for 9 minutes. His own curiosity meant that while out of his body - in what he described as a see-through (etheric) body, that none the less felt completely him - meant that he was particularly observant and mentioned details that were easily verifiable and not explicable by ordinary means.

For instance, he noted in the room next to his bed that a nurse was loading a trolley with equipment and dropped a syringe, which rolled under a cabinet. He had a look at the syringe and noted a letter printed on one side and number on the other. From what I could gather these were not externally visible but inside a wrapped package, suggesting that he had the kind of 'see through' vision that Edgar Cayce, the American spiritual healer, deployed. (This would probably correspond to the type of X-ray vision that Theosophist's link to the astral and etheric bodies, rather than the synoptic 'knowing' of the mental body).

He heard the nurse talk to her husband on the phone as her children were ill and needed to see a doctor. She told her husband where the doctor's no. was written in the phone book. He was interested to see the husband and found himself instantly in their flat, with the husband looking through the phone book. He noted that the man was wearing white socks with animals going round the top, which struck him as incongrous. He had a good look at the rest of the flat when he was there. These and other details were verified by a very shaken doctor who asked him when he came round what he had seen. This doctor had been literally on top of him during this time, attempting to revive his heart.

Tibor was taken by his guide (recognised as a very loving figure he knew well - it was left open who this figure was but the way it was phrased he/she could have been conflated with God or a God-figure) to the place of life review. He described the feeling of an escalator coming to an abrupt halt at the place where he 'got off' and was shown two screens, a bit like a split screen cinema.
The larger bottom screen showed his life as he had lived it, and the smaller one above it what should have happened if he had made better life choices.He was able to feel the pain he had caused others, and concluded that the greatest fault was indifference, rather than bad actions per se. He was evidently mortified at the choices he had made in life and asked for a chance to warn others that they needed to live better lives while they still had the chance.
In line with other NDE, regression accounts, there was no sense of external judgment, it was his conscience that caused him so much grief.

He was then asked three questions (by his guide/God/Elder?), to which he had to answer negatively: (1) Have you lived a life? (2) Have you lived a human life? and (3) Could you hold your head up as a human being and look your fellow human beings in the eye? He said that when Ray Moody had visited Hungary and interviewed him he confirmed that he had heard these same three questions from many other accounts (I don't remember them in print but it is many years since I read Moody's books).

Having finally met and been embraced by his 'family' (soul group - described as blue energy) he was taken by them to the threshold - seen almost literally as pearly gates - of a country he described as home, only to be told that he had asked to return. He was mortified to realise that his request to tell others to live better lives was stopping him enter his home, particularly has he had had a very difficult and rather love-less life, and was finally happy. He nevertheless was taken back to the intensive care ward and asked to be given a task, if he must, with great reluctance, return. He was told that his task was to 'be happy'. This was repeated several times before he re-entered his body. Having met Tibor it is clear that he has been working on this task and he conveys a wonderful sense of warmth and unpretentious spirituality.

If one wishes to look at Tibor's experience - and there is much more too it than I have given here - through the categories used by Michael Newton, Robert Schwartz and others, one could say that Tibor came from an advanced soul group - denoted by the blue of their energy field - and had chosen a particularly difficult life in order to catch up or to advance quickly. He died feeling that he had failed in this and was given another chance to advance. He did not use this analysis himself and I don't know whether he would go along with it, but it would certainly fit with what I observed and felt in his presence. I felt that he was very hard on himself and that if he considered his life had been a failure in spiritual terms he was setting himself very high standards as he had evidently displayed enormous courage in overcoming numerous external and psychological obstacles.
 
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#8
Another text of those three questions, number 2 in particular is a little clearer
He was faced with three questions during his clinical death experience:

1. Did you have a life before your death?
2. Did you live a life worthy of a human being?
3. Could you look into other people’s eyes with a pure heart and your head held high?


from this page, Founder:Putnoki Tibor
 
#9
Another text of those three questions, number 2 in particular is a little clearer
He was faced with three questions during his clinical death experience:

1. Did you have a life before your death?
2. Did you live a life worthy of a human being?
3. Could you look into other people’s eyes with a pure heart and your head held high?


from this page, Founder:Putnoki Tibor
Hi, Typoz do you think that the way this has been expressed might have been changed in translation slightly ?
 
#10
Hi, Typoz do you think that the way this has been expressed might have been changed in translation slightly ?
Well, yes, almost certainly. Though it comes from his own website (in English) rather than a google or other automated translation. But even with the best of intentions, there are idiomatic usages which can shift during the translation process, as well as perhaps the interpretation of the person making the translation.

Did you have a particular thought, or was that just a general comment?
 
#11
Well, yes, almost certainly. Though it comes from his own website (in English) rather than a google or other automated translation. But even with the best of intentions, there are idiomatic usages which can shift during the translation process, as well as perhaps the interpretation of the person making the translation.

Did you have a particular thought, or was that just a general comment?
Thanks, Typoz yes I did. Number 1 doesn't make sense to me. 2 ...what is "a life worthy of a human being" ....is that a life worthy of a spiritual being who should know better (than to cause harm) when incarnated...or is it that human beings are only allowed to live a certain way.

3 makes more sense without the pure heart clause.
 
#12
A comment from the author of the piece above.

The hospital staff were very shaken apparently. The doctor who was with Tibor when he regained consciousness asked him what he had seen, and without that invitation he said that he would never have talked about his experience. The doctor was, however, a sceptic and was very shaken, immediately trying to verify the information given - finding the dropped syringe, and driving to the nurse's flat, returning with her husbands white socks with the red horses around the edge. Apparently he was so shaken he had to get someone else to drive, and kept repeating that it wasn't possible. In the ward above Tibor had noted, with powers of memory and observation that clearly went well beyond what was possible in his body, all the names, dates of birth and dates of discharge of the patients. He had never been to this ward, having been too ill to leave his bed. The doctor immediately verified all this information. What the longer term effect was on this doctor Tibor didn't say.
 
#13
Thanks, Typoz yes I did. Number 1 doesn't make sense to me. 2 ...what is "a life worthy of a human being" ....is that a life worthy of a spiritual being who should know better (than to cause harm) when incarnated...or is it that human beings are only allowed to live a certain way.

3 makes more sense without the pure heart clause.
I tend to agree. Probably the first means something bigger and more significant that what it says. But I couldn't say what.

The second, elsewhere he has said all answers must depend on the individual's own conscience, so I don't think it means there are restrictions on what is or is not allowed, as such. I do think it probably means as a combined spiritual-and-human being,

The third, the 'pure heart' perhaps could mean being honest, with no deception or subterfuge.
 
#15
Copied from a blog with thanks

There were several very interesting features of the NDE - as Tibor was on a life support system in intensive care at the time his physical functions, or lack of them, were monitored and therefore externally verifiable. He was without a heart beat for 9 minutes. His own curiosity meant that while out of his body - in what he described as a see-through (etheric) body, that none the less felt completely him - meant that he was particularly observant and mentioned details that were easily verifiable and not explicable by ordinary means.

For instance, he noted in the room next to his bed that a nurse was loading a trolley with equipment and dropped a syringe, which rolled under a cabinet. He had a look at the syringe and noted a letter printed on one side and number on the other. From what I could gather these were not externally visible but inside a wrapped package, suggesting that he had the kind of 'see through' vision that Edgar Cayce, the American spiritual healer, deployed. (This would probably correspond to the type of X-ray vision that Theosophist's link to the astral and etheric bodies, rather than the synoptic 'knowing' of the mental body).

He heard the nurse talk to her husband on the phone as her children were ill and needed to see a doctor. She told her husband where the doctor's no. was written in the phone book. He was interested to see the husband and found himself instantly in their flat, with the husband looking through the phone book. He noted that the man was wearing white socks with animals going round the top, which struck him as incongrous. He had a good look at the rest of the flat when he was there. These and other details were verified by a very shaken doctor who asked him when he came round what he had seen. This doctor had been literally on top of him during this time, attempting to revive his heart.

Tibor was taken by his guide (recognised as a very loving figure he knew well - it was left open who this figure was but the way it was phrased he/she could have been conflated with God or a God-figure) to the place of life review. He described the feeling of an escalator coming to an abrupt halt at the place where he 'got off' and was shown two screens, a bit like a split screen cinema.
The larger bottom screen showed his life as he had lived it, and the smaller one above it what should have happened if he had made better life choices.He was able to feel the pain he had caused others, and concluded that the greatest fault was indifference, rather than bad actions per se. He was evidently mortified at the choices he had made in life and asked for a chance to warn others that they needed to live better lives while they still had the chance.
In line with other NDE, regression accounts, there was no sense of external judgment, it was his conscience that caused him so much grief.

He was then asked three questions (by his guide/God/Elder?), to which he had to answer negatively: (1) Have you lived a life? (2) Have you lived a human life? and (3) Could you hold your head up as a human being and look your fellow human beings in the eye? He said that when Ray Moody had visited Hungary and interviewed him he confirmed that he had heard these same three questions from many other accounts (I don't remember them in print but it is many years since I read Moody's books).

Having finally met and been embraced by his 'family' (soul group - described as blue energy) he was taken by them to the threshold - seen almost literally as pearly gates - of a country he described as home, only to be told that he had asked to return. He was mortified to realise that his request to tell others to live better lives was stopping him enter his home, particularly has he had had a very difficult and rather love-less life, and was finally happy. He nevertheless was taken back to the intensive care ward and asked to be given a task, if he must, with great reluctance, return. He was told that his task was to 'be happy'. This was repeated several times before he re-entered his body. Having met Tibor it is clear that he has been working on this task and he conveys a wonderful sense of warmth and unpretentious spirituality.

If one wishes to look at Tibor's experience - and there is much more too it than I have given here - through the categories used by Michael Newton, Robert Schwartz and others, one could say that Tibor came from an advanced soul group - denoted by the blue of their energy field - and had chosen a particularly difficult life in order to catch up or to advance quickly. He died feeling that he had failed in this and was given another chance to advance. He did not use this analysis himself and I don't know whether he would go along with it, but it would certainly fit with what I observed and felt in his presence. I felt that he was very hard on himself and that if he considered his life had been a failure in spiritual terms he was setting himself very high standards as he had evidently displayed enormous courage in overcoming numerous external and psychological obstacles.
If you're lifting large sections of this person's work, maybe you should include a link?
 
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