Pim van Lommel Interview

#1
Interview by Wayne Becker on December 12, 2014.
Instead, if I may, I would like to interview – even more than the cardiologist – Pim van Lommel, the thoughtful man, the humanist, the philosopher. By your own admission, your NDE studies have changed you; as such, I believe your many years of study can help all of us better understand the larger existential questions at hand: what it means to be truly human, the nature of consciousness, and maybe even a glimpse at destiny.
Also, this one may suit those who prefer to read rather than listen.

http://www.spiritoday.com/science-2-0-dr-pim-van-lommel-interview/
 
#2
It's still a pity Van Lommel still can't see beyond his belief that the brain is non functioning in these cardiac arrest cases. In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the brain was in an energy compromised state, resulting in a collapse of neuron firing.

In my opinion there is now overwhelming evidence that the brains networks themselves function in a feedback loop, together with neuron firing, by processing EM fields from the firing of the neurons.

Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest, the spatial networks themselves, can temporarily continue to function, and are sometimes able to process external fields, in place of the brains endogenous fields.
 
#3
It's still a pity Van Lommel still can't see beyond his belief that the brain is non functioning in these cardiac arrest cases. In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the brain was in an energy compromised state, resulting in a collapse of neuron firing.

In my opinion there is now overwhelming evidence that the brains networks themselves function in a feedback loop, together with neuron firing, by processing EM fields from the firing of the neurons.

Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest, the spatial networks themselves, can temporarily continue to function, and are sometimes able to process external fields, in place of the brains endogenous fields.
What is that "overwhelming evidence", Max? I am not so sure.

Very very recently I received a double graph, showing an EEG and an ECG, of the same event, i.e. a complete standstill of the heart (asystoly) while at the same time an ECG was taken. Result: one sees how the heart stops beating, and within a few seconds the ECG goes flat - completely - no ripples whatsoever. A minute or so later the heart begins beating again, and slowly but surely the ECG begins showing again its waves and ripples.

Now, how come that under such circumstances the brain can produce a realitiy that, according to NDE'rs who have gone through, is realer than real? That is the big enigma, Max. To me it seems unlikely that the overwhelming evidence you talk about can account for that phenomenon. But perhaps I misunderstand what you are trying to convey.
 
#4
What is that "overwhelming evidence", Max?
Simple single and multicellular organisms with centrioles, but absolutely no neurons, which seem to navigate around space-time perfectly well, indicating neuron firing (measured using EEG) is not absolutely essential.

Plenty of studies showing neural networks are more sensitive to em fields, than individual neurons themselves.

Evidence showing endogenous em fields from firing neurons entrains neural networks, influencing future firing of neurons in a feedback loop. ie em fields from firing neurons are not an epiphenomena.

Evidence that electrical fields influence cell expression.

Evidence which suggests that individual cell centrioles have a sensory, organising and processing function, - that they show intelligent behaviour.

Evidence showing the brain can transduce weak em fields.

Evidence showing it is the centriole which leads and directs the migration of neurons from the centre, to the outer cortex of the brain during neurogenesis.

Evidence showing memories can be recovered by robust regrowth of neural networks following massive deliberate damage. Indicating that memories are not lost, but rather only 'access' to memories is lost through network damage.

The list of relevant research is massive... too much to list here... The inevitable conclusion is just not yet accepted by the general scientific community.
 
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#5
Simple single and multicellular organisms with centrioles, but absolutely no neurons, which seem to navigate around space-time perfectly well, indicating neuron firing (measured using EEG) is not absolutely essential.

Plenty of studies showing neural networks are more sensitive to em fields, than individual neurons themselves.

Evidence showing endogenous em fields from firing neurons entrains neural networks, influencing future firing of neurons in a feedback loop. ie em fields from firing neurons are not an epiphenomena.

Evidence that electrical fields influence cell expression.

Evidence which suggests that individual cell centrioles have a sensory, organising and processing function, - that they show intelligent behaviour.

Evidence showing the brain can transduce weak em fields.

Evidence showing it is the centriole which leads and directs the migration of neurons from the centre, to the outer cortex of the brain during neurogenesis.

Evidence showing memories can be recovered by robust regrowth of neural networks following massive deliberate damage. Indicating that memories are not lost, but rather only 'access' to memories is lost through network damage.

The list of relevant research is massive... too much to list here... The inevitable conclusion is just not yet accepted by the general scientific community.
Hmmmm - all pretty interesting, thanks. I have to think about it. But here it is time to turn in. So I sign off.
 
#6
Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest, the spatial networks themselves, can temporarily continue to function, and are sometimes able to process external fields, in place of the brains endogenous fields.
Certainly interesting. But is there any evidence that under a compromised energy state we can maintain consciousness as if everything was normal?
It's like saying that an entire city can keep working as if nothing had happened even during a massive electricity blackout. At the very best all major activities in the city are drastically reduced to a bare minimum and only a minute fraction can keep going thanks to a few energy backup systems. However, seen from afar the city looks pretty much unable to function and sustain all of its major activities.

If the brain produces all of the stuff that happens in an NDE then it would at least seem that our current understanding of how consciousness works is pretty much useless. Which might be the case.

cheers
 
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#7
Certainly interesting. But is there any evidence that under a compromised energy state we can maintain consciousness as if everything was normal?
It's like saying that an entire city can keep working as if nothing had happened even during a massive electricity blackout. At the very best all major activities in the city are drastically reduced to a bare minimum and only a minute fraction can keep going thanks to a few energy backup systems. However, seen from afar the city looks pretty much unable to function and sustain all of its major activities.

If the brain produces all of the stuff that happens in an NDE then it would at least seem that our current understanding of how consciousness works is pretty much useless. Which might be the case.

cheers
It's not really anything like your example I'm afraid. Your just falling back to the 'neurons do it all' idea, rather than my idea that neurons simply present sensory data to the network in a feedback loop.

Neurons are the high energy consuming active 'write' mechanism, the Network is the low energy consuming passive 'read' mechanism.

The reason for the NDE / NDE OBE during cardiac arrest I suggest is due to the difference between energy usage in these two mechanisms. One runs out of energy faster than the other.
 
#8
It's not really anything like your example I'm afraid. Your just falling back to the 'neurons do it all' idea, rather than my idea that neurons simply present sensory data to the network in a feedback loop.
But isn't the neuron-do-it-all idea the prevailing model for how consciousness is "secreted"?

What you're essentially saying is that the current model of firing neurons is hardly correct. And the you go on by proposing a different mechanism which should produce NDE/OBEs... during cardiac arrest... I am not sure how we can conclude that, given that we have no idea of the "necessary and sufficient" ingredients to generate consciousness, to quote Alex.

On a more technical note about your hypothesis...
In my opinion there is now overwhelming evidence that the brains networks themselves function in a feedback loop, together with neuron firing, by processing EM fields from the firing of the neurons.
When the firing of the neurons ceases isn't the feedback loop interrupted?

thanks
 
#9
But isn't the neuron-do-it-all idea the prevailing model for how consciousness is "secreted"?

What you're essentially saying is that the current model of firing neurons is hardly correct. And the you go on by proposing a different mechanism which should produce NDE/OBEs... during cardiac arrest... I am not sure how we can conclude that, given that we have no idea of the "necessary and sufficient" ingredients to generate consciousness, to quote Alex.

On a more technical note about your hypothesis...

When the firing of the neurons ceases isn't the feedback loop interrupted?

thanks
How would you like to explain apparent intelligent behaviour (cooperation, organisation, sensory evidence, communication, memory, periodicity etc) in motile and mobile unicellular and multicellular centriole containing organisms which don't have any neurons? There are masses of papers with evidence of such behaviour.
 
#10
How would you like to explain apparent intelligent behaviour (cooperation, organisation, sensory evidence, communication, memory, periodicity etc) in motile and mobile unicellular and multicellular centriole containing organisms which don't have any neurons? There are masses of papers with evidence of such behaviour.
That doesn't seem to reply to my question, though.

You are saying that it is a pity that Van Lommel can't see beyond his belief that the brain is non functioning in cardiac arrest cases.
Then you propose that there is overwhelming evidence for a different mechanism:

In my opinion there is now overwhelming evidence that the brains networks themselves function in a feedback loop, together with neuron firing, by processing EM fields from the firing of the neurons.
My question again is... isn't the mechanism going to be interrupted when such feedback loop is no longer fed by neuron firing?

I don't think the behavior of unicellular organisms can be a convincing answer. Are you suggesting that human consciousness can keep working with no neuronal activity? If so why did we evolve such a complex and energy consuming machinery if we could very well function without it?

I am also confused by your reply because it seems to allude to a weird or funny consequence...
If NDEs arise from this temporary interruption of the feedback loop, which is normal in the organisms you have cited because they don't have neurons... should we infer that those unicellular beings are experiencing a continuos NDE-like experience?
 
#11
That doesn't seem to reply to my question, though.

You are saying that it is a pity that Van Lommel can't see beyond his belief that the brain is non functioning in cardiac arrest cases.
Then you propose that there is overwhelming evidence for a different mechanism:



My question again is... isn't the mechanism going to be interrupted when such feedback loop is no longer fed by neuron firing?

I don't think the behavior of unicellular organisms can be a convincing answer. Are you suggesting that human consciousness can keep working with no neuronal activity? If so why did we evolve such a complex and energy consuming machinery if we could very well function without it?

I am also confused by your reply because it seems to allude to a weird or funny consequence...
If NDEs arise from this temporary interruption of the feedback loop, which is normal in the organisms you have cited because they don't have neurons... should we infer that those unicellular beings are experiencing a continuos NDE-like experience?
We have centriole containing organisms that navigate space-time and show intelligent behaviour (as outlined above) which don't have any neurons to fire.

But Van Lommel says the brain is non functional during cardiac arrest, because he can't detect any firing neurons with EEG?

I dunno what more I can say...
 
#12
We have centriole containing organisms that navigate space-time and show intelligent behaviour (as outlined above) which don't have any neurons to fire.

But Van Lommel says the brain is non functional during cardiac arrest, because he can't detect any firing neurons with EEG?

I dunno what more I can say...
Being able to navigate space and time does not prove the single cell organism you are referring to has consciousness. I don't know how you would ever prove that, but nonetheless you know the human has consciousness. So the comparison you are making is lacking. it is one of the many, many problems with the mouse experiment which made news last year. You don't know the mouse who had electrical activity within 30 seconds of death had consciousness therefore its impossible to prove it survived for 30 seconds. In that case you also have the problem of that does not explain observations made by a dead guy more than 30 seconds after death.

I won't comment on Lommels comments just flaws in your argument.

Also, the issue is that there has been zero recorded brain activity. You are trying to parse out the firing neurons and comparing that to the single celled organism. This is an easy thing to study. Find any signs of activity in the brain outside that 30 second window and you have an argument, why is it nobody has every found this activity if it is there? Evidence please?
 
#13
Being able to navigate space and time does not prove the single cell organism you are referring to has consciousness. I don't know how you would ever prove that, but nonetheless you know the human has consciousness. So the comparison you are making is lacking. it is one of the many, many problems with the mouse experiment which made news last year. You don't know the mouse who had electrical activity within 30 seconds of death had consciousness therefore its impossible to prove it survived for 30 seconds. In that case you also have the problem of that does not explain observations made by a dead guy more than 30 seconds after death.

I won't comment on Lommels comments just flaws in your argument.

Also, the issue is that there has been zero recorded brain activity. You are trying to parse out the firing neurons and comparing that to the single celled organism. This is an easy thing to study. Find any signs of activity in the brain outside that 30 second window and you have an argument, why is it nobody has every found this activity if it is there? Evidence please?
Let's see if you can get a better answer than what I got :)
 
#15
We go from

"Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest"

and

" In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the brain was in an energy compromised state"

to

"dunno"

this is a strange language collapse here. Either way, if you don't know where consciousness fits into the conversation about Pim above then no one here can help you. It has been the central piece of conversation in all his talks, so don't play stupid now.

you also state "overwhelming" amount of evidence, yet don't cite any. if it's so overwhelming then you won't have a problem giving just one example will you? I'm not as smart as you and need help with examples please. There is such an overwhelming amount of evidence that no one can seem to find it?

I'm still waiting for the evidence.
 
#16
We go from

"Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest"

and

" In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the brain was in an energy compromised state"

to

"dunno"

this is a strange language collapse here. Either way, if you don't know where consciousness fits into the conversation about Pim above then no one here can help you. It has been the central piece of conversation in all his talks, so don't play stupid now.

you also state "overwhelming" amount of evidence, yet don't cite any. if it's so overwhelming then you won't have a problem giving just one example will you? I'm not as smart as you and need help with examples please. There is such an overwhelming amount of evidence that no one can seem to find it?

I'm still waiting for the evidence.
I didn't mention consciousness... you did. As for evidence, see my earlier post (google is your friend here), or just look back through my older posts, there are plenty of them.
 
#18
It's still a pity Van Lommel still can't see beyond his belief that the brain is non functioning in these cardiac arrest cases. In my opinion it would be more accurate to say that the brain was in an energy compromised state, resulting in a collapse of neuron firing.

In my opinion there is now overwhelming evidence that the brains networks themselves function in a feedback loop, together with neuron firing, by processing EM fields from the firing of the neurons.

Hence, when endogenous neurons cease firing due to their energy compromised state during cardiac arrest, the spatial networks themselves, can temporarily continue to function, and are sometimes able to process external fields, in place of the brains endogenous fields.
I'm sorry, can you un-Star Trek what you're saying here? I'm trying to follow along, and I just don't have enough breadcrumbs to get home.
 
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