Mod+ planning life events versus karma

[north]

Would like to make this thread Mod+ for discussion by those who accept consciousness is not equal to brain.

Some people express the position that major events in one's physical embodiment life are planned during pre-life and agreed to by the participant.

On another front, don't we agree to everything on a soul level before entering this life?.

I quote Robert Perry, but the point is also expressed by Mary Rodwell and many others.

What is the basis for this perspective?

I am interested in exploring this view and am not interested in going towards "scientific evidence".

It seems to come from experiences during hypnotic regression. But also possibly from some mediums?
Are there reports in any wisdom traditions?

Another perspective would be that major events are the results of karma - the consequences of actions done previously. The karmic view has a long history and many spiritual teachers have expressed that view (although some with different details).

 

[Jules]

Would like to make this thread Mod+ for discussion by those who accept consciousness is not equal to brain.

Some people express the position that major events in one's physical embodiment life are planned during pre-life and agreed to by the participant.


I quote Robert Perry, but the point is also expressed by Mary Rodwell and many others.

What is the basis for this perspective?

I am interested in exploring this view and am not interested in going towards "scientific evidence".

It seems to come from experiences during hypnotic regression. But also possibly from some mediums?
Are there reports in any wisdom traditions?

Another perspective would be that major events are the results of karma - the consequences of actions done previously. The karmic view has a long history and many spiritual teachers have expressed that view (although some with different details).

I can't comment directly on either of the questions above. One observation I would make is this; when I recorded the events I experienced a couple of years ago I wrote. "I felt like I was reading from a script." I recently read Suddenly Psychic where Maureen Caudill records her own "awakening" experience. She uses exactly the same phrase. You can draw your own conclusions.

I think we have come to an interesting junction in history where science and spirituality have the opportunity to "bleed" together into our understanding of the world. What will come (IMHO) is a challenge to people's religious paradigms. That's why I differentiate with some vigour at times between religious faith and mysticism. Faith has an important role - when the mythology of the First Nations bestow spiritual significance to a feather, then that feather takes up that significance. When Mongolian tribes people bestow significance to a drum, again, it takes up that significance. But something lies behind this "interface." Its not religion that will reveal it. I challenge new age doctrine as I do any faith. I see mysticism as being beyond religion and in many ways beyond "faith." It is in my opinion evidence based. Together mysticism and mathematics provide us with the most potent weapon against ignorance and futility. The boundaries of these two need to be defended. Thanks for putting forward questions which may serve to do so.

Jules

 

[Ian Gordon]

What is the basis for this perspective?

It seems to come from experiences during hypnotic regression. But also possibly from some mediums?
Are there reports in any wisdom traditions?

Another perspective would be that major events are the results of karma* - the consequences of actions done previously. The karmic view has a long history and many spiritual teachers have expressed that view (although some with different details).

Robert Schwartz' contemporary work with mediums - trance and clairaudient/clairvoyant - (Your Soul's Plan, Your Soul's Gift) supports that first perspective - although not in the sense of everything being planned. You can check out interviews with him on Bob Olsen's afterlifetv. On that site, I saw other interviews with mediums where that perspective is upheld (I can't remember coming across one that didn't - but I'm talking about those videos and more contemporary mediums here, not Allan Kardec for example.). It's my impression that the Seth Material (Jane Roberts) upholds it as well, but I may wrong as I haven't gotten to reading those books yet.

If I'm correct, I think that view also reflects psychic Edgar Cayce's views.

I also find it repeatedly, almost routinely, in NDE accounts - including what I consider some of the more in-depth and complex ones (Nanci Danison, Natalie Sudman). Even Betty Eadie's Embraced by the Light, which I find to be in the minority in mentioning reincarnation but only as a rare phenomenon, supports the view that we choose our major life circumstances and events (our genes, our family, etc. etc.).

The section on Kevin Williams site dealing with "pre-existence" has a lot of NDE material related to this topic:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research01.html#a02

I don't think the first perspective, as I understand it basing myself on how it is presented in the material I've just referenced, is completely irreconcilable with the second perspective, that of karma. But the notion of karma has to be, and is, reworked (often) as something not automatic, and more as a choice the soul makes to perfect itself (usually towards love, including self-love) by working through lower vibrations, if you will - not "bad actions".

Of course, one can't be certain in these matters, and I could be wrong, but that view as I've expressed it, because I find it so regularly in those different sources, and because, as it is expressed, I find it to be psychologically and spiritually deeper and more plausible, is what I tend to believe is the truer perspective.

EDIT: It's also the view of After-Death Communication researcher Bill Guggenheim - and I don't think you'd have trouble finding ADC's that refer to it. (I may have come across them, but don't remember.)

A while back, Bill Guggenheim had written something he called: "Who Do You Think You Are?'"
This was the start:

1. You are an eternal soul (a Being of Light), who lives primarily in the spirit world. You chose your current lifetime in physical reality aboard Spaceship Earth – as a student enrolled in “The Human Experience” – to achieve spiritual growth in a universe of duality.

2. You carefully selected your gender, race, color, nationality, culture, religion, talent, education, occupation, economic and social status, health, and other personal characteristics. All your choices will provide lessons you will learn – and lessons you will teach others.

3. You picked out your physical body – the “Earth suit” you’re wearing – to function in this space-time dimension. One day it will stop working (it will die), and you will continue to exist.

4. You mutually chose your primary relationships: parents and grandparents; siblings, marital partners, biological and adopted children, and pets (if any); friends and enemies; and many more. Be aware that every person and every experience is your teacher.

Really, I have a hard time thinking of any "psi" source that I've come across (apart from some fairly old Spiritualistic works) that doesn't hold up this perspective.

2nd EDIT: *Sorry north. As I'm re-reading your original post, you're talking about karma in terms of events on our lives that are the results of our actions - I don't find any support at all for that view of karma. (And therefore the Spiritualistic works I referred to earlier may not support it either). I, personally, and with all due respect to anyone who holds dear certain wisdom traditions, view it as a relic that has nothing to support it.

Here's a short video with one of the mediums Robert Schwartz used in his books, Staci Wells, that talks about "karma" in the sense of pre-life challenge planning.

 

[Bucky]

You may also be interested in this lecture by Rudolph Steiner entitled "Facing Karma", given in Vienna in 1912.

Transcript:
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19120208p01.html

There are some interesting passages that offer more details about the "choosing" process.
Cheers

 

[Andrew Paquette]

I'm writing this on my iPad, so I'll be brief. In my case, I have had quite a few dreams on this subject and they are all totally consistent with each other. According to them, we very carefully plan or agree to plans made for us the events of our lives prior to entering them. In one of these, one of the most vivid dreams I've ever had, I "remember" the approval process for this life, and in others, I am told what the agreements where regarding certain events in this life.

AP

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm writing this on my iPad, so I'll be brief. In my case, I have had quite a few dreams on this subject and they are all totally consistent with each other. According to them, we very carefully plan or agree to plans made for us the events of our lives prior to entering them. In one of these, one of the most vivid dreams I've ever had, I "remember" the approval process for this life, and in others, I am told what the agreements where regarding certain events in this life.

What makes you feel confident that these dreams reflect reality, even assuming mind /= brain?

~~ Paul

 

[Andrew Paquette]

What makes you feel confident that these dreams reflect reality, even assuming mind /= brain?

~~ Paul

Keep in mind this is a Mod+ thread, so it is not about proof. This means that I am not going to pursue a proof-oriented discussion here. However, in the interest of amity, here is your answer: it makes sense. That is all there is to it. It just makes sense. I could construct a fancier answer with various levels of justification, but this is what it comes down to. It feels right, sounds right, and makes sense.

AP

 

[Jules]

AP - and when you agreed to this life plan was it for the purpose of your personal spiritual development? I still struggle with the idea that 6 million jews signed up to be murdered in the holocaust for their personal spiritual growth. On the other hand if you look at a more collective consciousness view (which conforms much more to my spiritual experience), I can see what a lesson the holocaust was to the human race and how that has shaped our understanding of what we are capable of. I could understand it better if the spiritual evolution of the human race was seen more globally. My experience was that each of us are many "selves" with a collective identity.

 

[Andrew Paquette]

As I see it, we all agree to what happens, whether done by us or done to us. It may not sound nice when looked at from the perspective of our waking experience, but from the perspective of spiritual development it looks very different. Having said that, I doubt it makes any difference what any of us think right now.

AP

 

[Ian Gordon]

@Ian Gordon - video of Staci Wells - she exhibits inability to express her thoughts and experiences appropriately. New Age? McKenna's language is incomplete?

And those 6 million were reincarnated, all or the majority. They learned the lessons (hopefully) that they planned when they chose to be persecuted. No problems, eh?

IMO, posts like these are of little value. They demonstrate little or no acquaintance with "psi" material and do not respect the spirit in which I offered my post, which was to answer the question asked by the thread starter, North: What is the basis for (the planning events) perspective? As I wrote somewhere else, whether you or I could find any such ideas repellent has nothing to do with to the degree to which they could be true. "Psi" material repeatedly offers the view that the human-centered perspective may be but a (very) small part of the big picture. This is nothing shocking or new if someone is at all acquainted with material like this - which is the "data" that is the basis for the Skeptiko forum. The UFO abduction threads, to the extent that the phenomenon has a reality outside the experiencer's mind (I have no fixed opinion on the matter), are just another potential example of this.

The video of medium Staci Wells was not included to offer a highly articulate, theoretical perspective (your posts were not shining examples of articulateness either, btw). It's just an example of something I recently came across that came to mind where the word "karma" is used in a redefined way - and she was one of the mediums used by Robert Schwartz. It should also be obvious that people like her, mediums, intuitives, are most of the time not academics (!), and speak while trying to stay experientially connected, and not coming on board with The Critique of Pure Reason or Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals. I also have a sneaking suspicion (and, yes, backed up by a lot of reading that supports the idea) that an incarnate personality's intellectual powers may have little or nothing to do with the advancement of that soul's spiritual advancement - and may in some/many cases be a block.

 

[Bucky]

IMO, posts like these are of little value. They demonstrate little or no acquaintance with "psi" material and do not respect the spirit in which I offered my post, which was to answer the question asked by the thread starter, North: What is the basis for (the planning events) perspective? As I wrote somewhere else, whether you or I could find any such ideas repellent has nothing to do with to the degree to which they could be true. "Psi" material repeatedly offers the view that the human-centered perspective may be but a (very) small part of the big picture. This is nothing shocking or new if someone is at all acquainted with material like this - which is the "data" that is the basis for the Skeptiko forum. The UFO abduction threads, to the extent that the phenomenon has a reality outside the experiencer's mind (I have no fixed opinion on the matter), are just another potential example of this.

The video of medium Staci Wells was not included to offer a highly articulate, theoretical perspective (your posts were not shining examples of articulateness either, btw). It's just an example of something I recently came across that came to mind where the word "karma" is used in a redefined way - and she was one of the mediums used by Robert Schwartz. It should also be obvious that people like her, mediums, intuitives, are most of the time not academics (!), and speak while trying to stay experientially connected, and not coming on board with The Critique of Pure Reason or Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals. I also have a sneaking suspicion (and, yes, backed up by a lot of reading that supports the idea) that an incarnate personality's intellectual powers may have little or nothing to do with the advancement of that soul's spiritual advancement - and may in some/many cases be a block.

Great post. I very much agree with the exception of the last part about the intellect. I wouldn't equate it to the sole analytical thinking. I would say the intellectual power is a manifestation of all forms of intelligence (analytical, creative, intuitive, emotional etc...) and when these ingredients are in balance we get the genius minds of Leonardo, Einstein, Goethe, etc... In our modern reductionist society we mainly value analytical thinking even to the excess. That's rarely a great form of intellect and yes, it can hinder personal and spiritual growth.

cheers

 

[Ian Gordon]

Great post. I very much agree with the exception of the last part about the intellect. I wouldn't equate it to the sole analytical thinking. I would say the intellectual power is a manifestation of all forms of intelligence (analytical, creative, intuitive, emotional etc...) and when these ingredients are in balance we get the genius minds of Leonardo, Einstein, Goethe, etc... In our modern reductionist society we mainly value analytical thinking even to the excess. That's rarely a great form of intellect and yes, it can hinder personal and spiritual growth.

cheers

Thanks Bucky, including for your thoughtful recalibration of that last less-than-nuanced pronouncement of mine!

 

[Tyler]

@IanGordon - I am quite aware of who Staci Wells is and have read all of Robert Schwartz books. This does not change the fact that she represents herself poorly in the video you mention which btw is a small portion of the 30 minute presentation that she bumbled through of which I have also archived.

I find her explanations re: karma to be less than forthcoming and in consideration that Schwartz is quite eloquent in his definitions of karma, wonder if she is paying attention to Schwartz at all. How you come to the conclusion that I "demonstrate little or no acquaintance with "psi" material" from two short posts completely alludes me.

========================================================================

Robert Perry said: "On another front, don't we agree to everything on a soul level before entering this life?."

North followed: "What is the basis for this perspective? I am interested in exploring this view and am not interested in going towards "scientific evidence"."

My basis for knowing with certainty that we pre-plan our reincarnations comes from having guided many clients through past life regressions and life-between-life sessions. Further, my OBEs that include ethereal and astral plane explorations confirm my own past lives, present day soulmates and members of my soul groupings. Conversations with those who assist me in this earthly incarnation also confirm these as factual.

Nothing beats personal experience to break through the belief barrier and acquire pure knowledge.

 

[Alex]

When Mongolian tribes people bestow significance to a drum, again, it takes up that significance. But something lies behind this "interface."

well put. thx.

 

[Alex]

Keep in mind this is a Mod+ thread, so it is not about proof. This means that I am not going to pursue a proof-oriented discussion here. However, in the interest of amity, here is your answer: it makes sense. That is all there is to it. It just makes sense. I could construct a fancier answer with various levels of justification, but this is what it comes down to. It feels right, sounds right, and makes sense.

AP

BTW I noticed that mod+ was not enable on this forum... my oversight, now enabled on all. just "add prefix" and select Mod+

 

[Alex]

AP - and when you agreed to this life plan was it for the purpose of your personal spiritual development? I still struggle with the idea that 6 million jews signed up to be murdered in the holocaust for their personal spiritual growth. On the other hand if you look at a more collective consciousness view (which conforms much more to my spiritual experience), I can see what a lesson the holocaust was to the human race and how that has shaped our understanding of what we are capable of. I could understand it better if the spiritual evolution of the human race was seen more globally. My experience was that each of us are many "selves" with a collective identity.

you might be interested in: http://www.amazon.com/Flipside-A-Journey-Into-Afterlife/dp/B0081U6K1Y

fascinating bit on the holocaust where a victim explains their choice and explains (paraphrasing) how it was even harder to be a perpetrator (nazi deathcamp person) and live with what they had done.

 

[Tyler]

you might be interested in: http://www.amazon.com/Flipside-A-Journey-Into-Afterlife/dp/B0081U6K1Y

fascinating bit on the holocaust where a victim explains their choice and explains (paraphrasing) how it was even harder to be a perpetrator (nazi deathcamp person) and live with what they had done.

Martini has several YouTubes, podcast interviews easily Googled. Here is his blogspot.

http://richmartini.blogspot.com/

and his movie trailer

http://www.youtube.com/user/martinifilm

I have had the good fortune to occasional email correspondence with Scott de Tamble re: PLR/LBL and Future Life Progressions. He and Martini see this therapy as primarily a healing art which is problematic for those who regress in America living in states where the word "therapy" is statutorily defined and licensed.

Here is a link to Martini's compilation of videos including his latest 2hr+ talk in mid Oct 2013.

 

[Ian Gordon]

How you come to the conclusion that I "demonstrate little or no acquaintance with "psi" material" from two short posts completely alludes me.

Sorry there, Tyler. Now that you've articulated yourself a little further , I can clearly see I got the wrong impression. Your second post in particular gave the (apparently now very wrong!) impression that you were just sarcastically, knee-jerk dismissing this whole discussion (a newbie flamer)!! Seems I wasn't the only one who got that impression!

Again, just to be clear, I didn't choose that video of Staci Wells out of any special admiration of her presentation in that clip, just as a very quick (apparently overhasty) and short reference to a use of the word "karma" by a medium that isn't about events happening to us because of the consequences of our actions.

 

[Tyler]

Sorry there, Tyler. Now that you've articulated yourself a little further , I can clearly see I got the wrong impression. Your second post in particular gave the (apparently now very wrong!) impression that you were just sarcastically, knee-jerk dismissing this whole discussion (a newbie flamer)!! Seems I wasn't the only one who got that impression!

Again, just to be clear, I didn't choose that video of Staci Wells out of any special admiration of her presentation in that clip, just as a very quick (apparently overhasty) and short reference to a use of the word "karma" by a medium that isn't about events happening to us because of the consequences of our actions.

I'm the overly sensitive type, Ian, my bad here. It all began when my mother dropped me on my head at 3 months. I never fully recovered.

At least Staci Wells has the courage to state her views for all to see as does Schwartz and many other pioneers of soul pre-planning . Me, I'm just an Interwebs critic with no skin in the game.

 

[soulatman]

This is a fascinating topic to me. Karma versus Life Plan. I have been wrestling alot with these two lately in trying to get a handle on events in my own life story.

I wonder are the two necessarily juxtaposed?

For the longest time now, I have viewed life through a set of karmic spectacles. I have found in the past the concept of Karma to be a parsimonious explanation for the why's and how's of so many of lifes unfoldings. For me, the notion of Karma had tremendous explanatory power, and although I certainly didn't attribute all happenings in life to Karma (a kind of deterministic fatalism), much of what seemed on the surface as random happenings, were equally and better explained for me in terms of Karmic unfoldings.

However, I never seriously entertained the notion that what was happening in and around my life could also potentially be explained as the result of some pre life plan. Until recently. I have been reading Gary Schwartz's 'The Afterlife Experiments', and a number of other books which have really begun to cement for me this idea that the data coming from mediumship research, NDE's, psychic and psi phenomena, past life and between life regression and much more, is really pointing to an objective spirtual reality, which is central to who we are, and what we are doing here.

Now, the reality they seem to point to, seems to be quite different from the almost impersonal Karmically driven model of the universe many idealistic philosphies proclaim. We seem less to be bumbling karmic idiots, haplessly sowing seeds of desirable and undesirable Karma, and sliding up and down the spiritual ladder, than beings attempting a determined and focused spiritual progression. In order to progress, it seems it is important to experience both pleasant and unpleasant realities, highs and lows, light and dark, with a lot of emphasis on the experiences characterised by suffering.

I am now beginning to see that a spiritual universe in which the soul chooses great adversity, rather than merely paying back a karmic debt to the spiritual bank manager, is one which will greatly facilitate tremendous growth and maturing. In the blind Karmic model of the universe, it is as the buddhist suggest, as foam being tossed around by a mighty ocean, and it is only through good fortune that one miraculously stumbles upon a method of liberation (the dharma). Contrasted with the Life Plan model, whereby this drama of life, so real and believable, is planned in such a way that the knowledge gleaned from life events no matter how painful, will in the bigger picture, serve only to aid our spiritual advancement and refinement.

I do still wonder though whether the two are necessarily opposed, or whether in some way they don't both function. Could it be for example that we plan the method of repaying our Karmic debt, and the result is an expedient means of learning and progressing spiritually? And also, that we freely choose negative events which have nothing to do with Karma, and are merely expedient means of the souls learning?

Another reason for my re evaluating this theme, and questioning the notion that Karma may be the central spoke around which the wheel of lifes events revolve, comes from dreams and precognition. Since I was very young, I had this strange dream, which felt more like a memory than a dream, which has always been lurking in the background. At the age of 36, a serious of life shattering and life changing events happened, which were entirely related to this dream/memory. On both a literal and symbolic level, the reference to the events which unfolded in my life were impossible to ignore. All of a sudden, this memory, became a precognition, and it fit events 100%. I do not wish to share details, but I know that the themes and literal circumstances portrayed in my memory/dream fit no other episodes in my life nearly as well, either symbolically, or literally, so I can only conclude the memory was actually a precognition of some sort. Just like I always knew these events would happen some how. These were the most defining events of my whole existence, and will continue to be so until I die.

Lots to think about.

Soul.