Possible hits on target during AWARE?

#1
I came across a german article that could possibly give away some huge breakthrough in the AWARE study, IF proven genuine:
http://grenzwissenschaft-aktuell.blogspot.com.ar/2014/02/aware-klinische-studie-uber-nahtod-und.html

I'll do a quickie translation of the important passage: "Gegenüber GreWi-Herausgeber Andreas Müller erläuterte Parnia nun jedoch: "Die im Buch beschriebenen Ergebnisse waren noch unvollständig und stammten aus der Zeit, noch bevor die finalen Ergebnisse vorlagen und ausgewertet wurden. Das ist mittlerweile anders und die Situation, wie wir sie nun in unserem wissenschaftlichen Manuskript darlegen können, hat sich signifikant verändert. Im Buch wollte ich einige erste Einblicke für all jene geben, die schon damals erste Information haben wollten."

"Things are now completely different than previously stated in my book, tells Parnia to Andreas Müller. The results I'm presenting in the book were "on the run" results which would not reflect the final outcome, as it showed up. The situation has now taken a significant turn, to such an extent that it has affected the way we have to finalise our scientific manuscript. The book was merely a first sight tour about the phenomena discscussed, and was meant to provide first glance informations..."

Give or take, this is how this passage translates.
Well, the only thing that bugs me is that I can't find any other source backing this apparent new stance assumed par Parnia it the said article.
This could be as huge as it could be bullshit.
 
#2
There was a high-level abstract of the results published in November last year. I suspect it may be something like this which is being referred to.

Quote from the presentation abstract:
"Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA."
 
#3
The impression I have reading the german report is more of a paradigm shift than what would be expected with the quote you provided. It gives the feeling that a complete remodeling of the previous theory needs to be embodied as to adress the new results at hand.
I don't know what to take of this, as I really thought AWARE was dead and cold for good and incapable of bringing forth the slightest exploitable material on that matter.
 
#4
The impression I have reading the german report is more of a paradigm shift than what would be expected with the quote you provided. It gives the feeling that a complete remodeling of the previous theory needs to be embodied as to adress the new results at hand.
I don't know what to take of this, as I really thought AWARE was dead and cold for good and incapable of bringing forth the slightest exploitable material on that matter.
If there are target hits, then that will be huge.
 
#6
At the risk of retracing our steps over old ground, here's the link to the full abstract from last November: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan...3&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}

Note the conclusion:
quote:
"Conclusions: Auditory and/or visual experiences during unconsciousness may be a relatively common phenomenon. Even though these experiences may not reflect the conventionally defined NDE and may be different, they may indicate that consciousness may not cease as expected with cessation of heartbeat during CA"​

It may be this relatively modestly-worded paragraph which gives cause for excitement. How paradigm-shifting this is may depend upon (a) one's current position on these matters and (b) the contents and robustness of the supporting evidence.

My own feeling is that it will be seen as relatively inconsequential by some (especially here on this forum), but to the scientific establishment may be seen as more significant.
 
#7
What was the context of that article? Was it an interview of Parnia? Where did it say the quote come from?

Cheers,
Bill
 
#8
What was the context of that article? Was it an interview of Parnia? Where did it say the quote come from?

Cheers,
Bill
Seems indeed to stem from some kind of interview given by S.P to a german journalist named Andreas Müller. Alas I can't seem to find any other reliable source to back this up, and the site would not provide more info about the article. I guess we will have to wait a little longer *scratches the back of his head*.
 
#9
At the risk of retracing our steps over old ground, here's the link to the full abstract from last November: http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan...3&mKey={951E351E-429C-4B2E-84D0-8DA73B00DE45}

Note the conclusion:
quote:
"Conclusions: Auditory and/or visual experiences during unconsciousness may be a relatively common phenomenon. Even though these experiences may not reflect the conventionally defined NDE and may be different, they may indicate that consciousness may not cease as expected with cessation of heartbeat during CA"​

It may be this relatively modestly-worded paragraph which gives cause for excitement. How paradigm-shifting this is may depend upon (a) one's current position on these matters and (b) the contents and robustness of the supporting evidence.

My own feeling is that it will be seen as relatively inconsequential by some (especially here on this forum), but to the scientific establishment may be seen as more significant.
I'm aware of this abstract, and I really hope it won't come to only this once the dust settles because this is not the evidence the scientific world needs to puncture through the layers and layers of skepticism it's coated with. One would always come up with the explanation of "brain still able to collect sensorial material and make up a scenario" even while apparently shut down... etc.
What we need is a clear reading of the targets which would stop any skeptic blahblah in its tracks. I'm really looking forward to reading about such a feat.
 
#10
There was a high-level abstract of the results published in November last year. I suspect it may be something like this which is being referred to.

Quote from the presentation abstract:
"Two had visual recollections of being able to ‘see’ events, and one accurately described details corresponding with a verifiable period of at least 3-5 minutes of CA."
I don't think he could be referring to that, because those are the two cases out of his book. It kind of sounds like something not covered in the book, as well as something on a whole 'nother level as far as significance.
 
#14
I suppose another possibility other than a "hit' would be more veridical OBEs with environmentally "time-stamped" observations accompanied by unprecedented accuracy in measuring oxygen levels in the brain (cerebral oximetry), etc. This wouldn't be as cool as a "hit", but it would be more remarkable than your vanilla-flavored OBEs, like the ones reported in Parnia's book. It was also one of the original goals of the study.

EDIT: Of course, if they find high levels of cerebal perfusion during said OBE, that could be both disappointing and rather perplexing!
 
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#15
I suppose another possibility other than a "hit' would be more veridical OBEs with environmentally "time-stamped" observations accompanied by unprecedented accuracy in measuring oxygen levels in the brain (cerebral oximetry), etc. This wouldn't be as cool as a "hit", but it would be more remarkable than your vanilla-flavored OBEs, like the ones reported in Parnia's book. It was also one of the original goals of the study.
Do you mean his first book or the second, Ethan ?

The case of Mr A in Erasing death is a solid veridical OBE. There is no conventional explanation for how the man heard the automated defibrillator giving the instruction to shock the patient twice. No matter what Linda can invent
 
#16
I suppose another possibility other than a "hit' would be more veridical OBEs with environmentally "time-stamped" observations accompanied by unprecedented accuracy in measuring oxygen levels in the brain (cerebral oximetry), etc. This wouldn't be as cool as a "hit", but it would be more remarkable than your vanilla-flavored OBEs, like the ones reported in Parnia's book. It was also one of the original goals of the study.

EDIT: Of course, if they find high levels of cerebal perfusion during said OBE, that could be both disappointing and rather perplexing!
They haven't found high levels of perfusion, Parnia said recently only 5 per cent of blood is getting into the brain after cardiac arrest according to the oxymeters. Sounds low to me but
 
#17
They haven't found high levels of perfusion, Parnia said recently only 5 per cent of blood is getting into the brain after cardiac arrest according to the oxymeters. Sounds low to me but
From what I've read, those meters (like the Nonin Equanox) are only a good non-invasive guide to oxygen levels, but at low oxygen levels these meters are very inaccurate.

"...when interpreting data when using near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS). As saturations fall, this methodology becomes unreliable. This is seen with pulse oximetry; when saturations fall below 75%, it becomes inaccurate and unreliable. Similar findings have been reported when using NIRS to monitor cerebral oxygenation. In a calibration study on healthy volunteers, at low saturations, especially below 50%, there was poor correlation between cerebral haemoglobin oxygen saturation and jugular venous saturation..."
 
#18
Do you mean his first book or the second, Ethan ?

The case of Mr A in Erasing death is a solid veridical OBE. There is no conventional explanation for how the man heard the automated defibrillator giving the instruction to shock the patient twice. No matter what Linda can invent
I was referring to Erasing Death. IIRC, they didn't really have a good measure of cerebral oximetry on the two reported OBEs. I agree it's really hard to explain even if there is plenty of perfusion (assuming it's not info leakage which is what the skeptics would jump on, since materialistically it wouldn't make much sense otherwise). Regardless, if they have some striking veridical OBEs and precise cerebral oximetry measurements showing the brain wasn't doing jack, it jus makes the case that much more air-tight and may be all they are referring to.

Based on what Max_B said, though, maybe this outcome isn't likely. So, maybe that leave us with a "hit" or total BS ;-)

Anyhow, here is from the AWARE site:

Through a variety of psychological5 and physiological tests as well as cerebral monitoring techniques6, we aim to conduct the first comprehensive study examining the relationship between the human mind, consciousness and brain during cardiac arrest

.....

6This can be done by using devices of cerebral oximetry. This device works by non-invasively transmitting and detecting harmless near infrared light through sensors that are placed on a patient's forehead. Just as with the commonly used pulse oximetry devices, which measure changes in the saturation of oxygen in peripheral blood, cerebral oximetry monitors changes in the saturation of oxygen within the cerebral cortex. This device thus has the potential to provide a real time indicator of cerebral oxygen levels and hence cerebral perfusion. To date there have only been limited studies of cerebral oximetry during cardiac arrest, which have indicated that this technique can provide a useful measure of cerebral oxygenation during cardiac arrest. Real time brain monitoring using cerebral oximetry may potentially provide an important and invaluable tool to guide physicians and nurses regarding the effectiveness of their resuscitation efforts as well as an independent clinical marker of improved mortality and outcomes.
 
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#19
From what I've read, those meters (like the Nonin Equanox) are only a good non-invasive guide to oxygen levels, but at low oxygen levels these meters are very inaccurate.

"...when interpreting data when using near-infrared spectroscopy (NIRS). As saturations fall, this methodology becomes unreliable. This is seen with pulse oximetry; when saturations fall below 75%, it becomes inaccurate and unreliable. Similar findings have been reported when using NIRS to monitor cerebral oxygenation. In a calibration study on healthy volunteers, at low saturations, especially below 50%, there was poor correlation between cerebral haemoglobin oxygen saturation and jugular venous saturation..."
But that's when saturation levels are low, Max which doesn't help the sceptics any. Then again it doesn't really matter if oxygen levels are high or low for them because they can have it both ways, saturation and deprivation.
 
#20
I was referring to Erasing Death. IIRC, they didn't really have a good measure of cerebral oximetry on the two reported OBEs. I agree it's really hard to explain even if there is plenty of perfusion (assuming it's not info leakage which is what the skeptics would jump on, since materialistically it wouldn't make much sense otherwise). Regardless, if they have some striking veridical OBEs and precise cerebral oximetry measurements showing the brain wasn't doing jack, it jus makes the case that much more air-tight and may be all they are referring to.

Based on what Max_B said, though, maybe this outcome isn't likely. So, maybe that leave us with a "hit" or total BS ;-)

Anyhow, here is from the AWARE site:
It doesn't matter about the oximeters when they are testing the validity of OBE's. They know what the physiological state of the brain is in cardiac arrest after ten or so seconds. They are not studying people that have nearly died, they study patients that HAVE died and been brought back after many minutes.
The work with the oximeters is designed to try to find out what is the optimum oxygen saturation level to ensure that the heart will restart in MOST cases.
 
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