Post Mortem Consciousness.

Yes, I have thought about it and I believe it goes on forever (reincarnation) ...I know I've been here before anyway (which I'm not going into). Even if you don't believe in survival, your wife will certainly have had the perception that she was surviving (that is going somewhere else and meeting deceased relatives because that's what happens and it's well documented. I'm not offering that as compensation though because you want your wife with you naturally.
Consider this Tim.
Observations suggest that the expansion of the universe will continue forever. If so, then a popular theory is that the universe will cool as it expands, eventually becoming too cold to sustain life. For this reason, this future scenario is popularly called the Big Freeze.[1]

If dark energy—represented by the cosmological constant, a constant energy density filling space homogeneously,[2] or scalar fields, such as quintessence or moduli, dynamic quantities whose energy density can vary in time and space—accelerates the expansion of the universe, then the space between clusters of galaxies will grow at an increasing rate. Redshift will stretch ancient, incoming photons (even gamma rays) to undetectably long wavelengths and low energies.[3] Stars are expected to form normally for 1012 to 1014 (1–100 trillion) years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. And as existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker, one star at a time.[4][5] According to theories that predict proton decay, the stellar remnants left behind will disappear, leaving behind only black holes, which themselves eventually disappear as they emit Hawking radiation.[6] Ultimately, if the universe reaches a state in which the temperature approaches a uniform value, no further work will be possible, resulting in a final heat death of the universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe#Dark_Era_and_Photon_Age
 
Everyone,

Does anyone know what has happened to this thread - people seem to be replying to posts that are not visible.

Also, please for goodness sake will everyone stop discussing trolling and such like. Please report posts if you think there is a problem with them.

David
 
I just took time off because my wife of 36 years died suddenly from terminal cancer.

That's horrible. My condolences to you. Must be a tough time for you.

Many folks on this forum are convinced the NDE is proof that life in some form continues post mortem, but unless I've missed it I've not seen anyone here consider out loud for how long life continues. Why don't you? Since folks are that convinced wondering for how long is the next question.

Many whom have had an NDE speaks of having a variety extra-sensory input that are not consistent with how they perceive it in real life. Like seeing colours they cant describe, or light rays that that emit sounds, as well. Also, having a 360¤ vision and can see everything around them. And then to the question about time. Many NDE'ers claim that they have a altered perception of how they perceive time in their NDE, saying that; "time doesn't matter here, it is not linear, and I were able to see different time-lines" etc.
When they come back from their NDE they have a hard time to explain these new "senses" they had, and cant find words to explain them. The part with the non-linear time being the hardest one to explain.
Also, many NDE'ers say that they spent hours, on hours, on the "other side". But on "this side" they were just dead for a 10-15min minutes, sometimes. So, the relativity of time in the afterlife seems hard to get a grip on.
 
Consider this Tim.

Physics and cosmology is over my head, Steve. Whatever's going to happen will happen, presumably. If there's a soul of us and I believe there is, surely even if the universe disappears up it's own rear end, such an entity (the soul) could still exist ? I used to analyse information like that and you can always go the other way too (downwards) but I'll leave it up to the experts. I can't say I'm particularly worried about what might happen in a trillion years though.
 
Let's keep reincarnation for another time and another thread because it involves rebirth.
OK, but your main question relates to "survival of consciousness" which is probably a very bad term, because if anything "survives" then a) it most likely pre-existed and b) what ultimately "survives" may be a very different form than that which died, just as the baby is very different from the 90 year old man it becomes, yet it is still the same person.

Consciousness, if fundamental to reality, is likely a very broad spectrum. Mystics, advanced meditators and esotericists have been making this point forever. The most common states of consciousness that have been described, along with what I believe may be examples include:

Physical - What we all experience and what science currently investigates
Etheric - Potentially what Robert Bruce calls "the realtime zone" (as opposed to the astral) and likely the state that NDE'ers find themselves in their initial out of body state (viewing the operating room or scene of an accident, seeing their body, hearing conversations in the physical, etc). I think this may also relate to qigong, accupuncture, the "silver chord," other states closely related to the physical.
Astral - Largely emotional, may range from hellish experiences of horror, dread, and despair (negative NDEs) to heavenly experiences of peace, bliss, and pure love experienced by other NDE'ers.
Mental - Rare glimpses of genius, insight, creativity, archetypical patterns... anything from a brilliant scientific insight to an sudden intuitive understanding of reality experienced by a mystic.
Buddhic - Pure spiritual consciousness, that which reincarnates (sorry). Referred to as the soul, Higher Self, essence. Even Ralph B. Allision, an expert on MPD described this in many of his patients (he called it the Inner Self Helper).

Examples of these states have been described since antiquity, and I believe may very well relate to what aspects of consciousness "survive."

Cheers,
Bill
 
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Well where NDEs include purported contact with people who have died or beings claiming to be very old I'd say, if true, then NDEs certainly show continuing existence for an extended period.

I've never read any purported post mortem communications that indicated an end to development. Although I did read something that suggested that people could opt for non-existence eventually, it wasn't from a source I considered particularly well-attested and it was against the body of evidence suggesting unlimited existence.
 
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OK, but your main question relates to "survival of consciousness" which is probably a very bad term, because if anything "survives" then a) it most likely pre-existed and b) what ultimately "survives" may be a very different form than that which died, just as the baby is very different from the 90 year old man it becomes, yet it is still the same person.

Consciousness, if fundamental to reality, is likely a very broad spectrum. Mystics, advanced meditators and esotericists have been making this point forever. The most common states of consciousness that have been described, along with what I believe may be examples include:

Physical - What we all experience and what science currently investigates
Etheric - Potentially what Robert Bruce calls "the realtime zone" (as opposed to the astral) and likely the state that NDE'ers find themselves in their initial out of body state (viewing the operating room or scene of an accident, seeing their body, hearing conversations in the physical, etc). I think this may also relate to qigong, accupuncture, the "silver chord," other states closely related to the physical.
Astral - Largely emotional, may range from hellish experiences of horror, dread, and despair (negative NDEs) to heavenly experiences of peace, bliss, and pure love experienced by other NDE'ers.
Mental - Rare glimpses of genius, insight, creativity, archetypical patterns... anything from a brilliant scientific insight to an sudden intuitive understanding of reality experienced by a mystic.
Buddhic - Pure spiritual consciousness, that which reincarnates (sorry). Referred to as the soul, Higher Self, essence. Even Ralph B. Allision, an expert on MPD described this in many of his patients (he called it the Inner Self Helper).

Examples of these states have been described since antiquity, and I believe may very well relate to what aspects of consciousness "survive."

Cheers,
Bill
Those are all beliefs which needlessly complicates the question, but since you brought them up I'm certain when I those ideas where born no one could have conceived how the universe is possibly expected to evolve. I think there are some beliefs that have the idea the universe is old, but I don't know think any of them conceived what happens in the extreme future evolution of the universe. In light of what is expected to happen to this universe as the universe grows older what happens to ones consciousness. Does it last or fade away guickly? And if one believes it does indefinitely how would that happen in a universe that for all practical purposes is dead itself? I'm really interested in the ideas forum members have not in the beliefs listed above.
 
I think I'm still just confused why someone who believed NDEs represent the afterlife would think the universe experiences heat death?

(I'm not even sure why we should be confident the universe experiences heat death even without NDEs.)
 
I think I'm still just confused why someone who believed NDEs represent the afterlife would think the universe experiences heat death?

(I'm not even sure why we should be confident the universe experiences heat death even without NDEs.)
I would not expect anyone to if they are not familiar with it. It is an extrapolated assumption to be sure, but one that does have observational evidence to back it up as a reasonable outcome. I would be surprised if many people in general have contemplated what the universe will be like in trillions upon trillions of years from now. It's difficult enough to imagine what it would be like to live to 100 years of age or more. It's a rare occurrence for most humans. Now try to imagine living for trillions upon trillions of years.

A good fun book to read.
From Wikipedia;
The book The Five Ages of the Universe discusses the history, present state, and probable future of the universe, according to cosmologists' current understanding. The book divides the timeline of the universe into five eras: the primordial Era, the Stelliferous Era, the Degenerate Era, the Black Hole Era and the Dark Era.

In addition to explaining current cosmological theory, the authors speculate on what kinds of life might exist in future eras of the universe. The speculation is based on a scaling hypothesis, due to Freeman Dyson, the idea being that all other things being equal the rate of metabolism—and therefore rate of consciousness—of an organism should be in direct proportion to the temperature at which that organism thrives. The authors envision life forms completely different from the biochemical ones of Earth, for example based on networked black holes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ages_of_the_Universe
 
I'm familiar with the idea of heat death and the reasoning for why.

I'm just not convinced, but it's not overly relevant since long before then I'll either be elsewhere or dead.
 
Those are all beliefs which needlessly complicates the question
Those are summaries of particular ideas, theories, and speculations that have been around a very long time. And many of them have commonalities that correspond to direct experiences of people having NDEs, OBEs, and mystical experiences across cultures, and going back an equally long time. They are ideas on what various states of consciousness may be like. If that complicates the question then I suggest that the question itself is ill formulated to begin with.

Cheers,
Bill
 
Consider this Tim.

Heat death of the universe is an interesting theory and if there was a Big Bang, it seems like a reasonably poetic balancing of opposites to end it all with a fade to silence.

In my earlier post in this thread I mentioned nothing and everything being identical. When there is at last pure nothingness or silence, it seems to me that everything including every possible existence would be contained in the nothing which is the seed for the next explosion of creativity into something. A "thing" is a differentiation or a contrast with something else - alternating boundaries and spaces - semantics - oscillations between symbol and interpretation of symbol. "No thing" exists only as a contrast to "some thing". If the universe becomes nothing it necessarily creates the negation of that. Another trick to think of it mathematically is to consider that 0 is a larger set than infinite because +infinity and -infinity added together = 0. So zero could be thought of as the set of all real numbers which is infinite and every number away from zero is a slightly smaller set of infinity. But this is really nonsense anyway because the definition of infinite means no boundary and if there is no boundary there can be no comparison.

It could be that our universe is on or inside a black hole that is itself dissipating. How weird is it that the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole for the mass of our universe equals the age of our universe??? Maybe every black hole viewed from the outside looks like a black hole but viewed from the inside appears to be a white hole with a Big Bang initiation? The light cone viewed from any point within would appear to stretch back a time equal to the radius when viewed externally. This black hole could be the manifestation of a proton in a larger reality with our galaxies forming the substance of the subatomic particles in the next level up. Perhaps scientists in the universe the next level up are presently loading us into a particle accelerator and about to smash us to bits in a few moments but due to time dilation it appears from our perspective that we undergo heat death. Who knows?

Anyway, I am a long ways from being convinced this is how it will all end despite the attractiveness of it from a balancing of opposites perspective. It seems that dark matter and dark energy are just patches on holes in existing theories. I have a feeling there is a more complex and nuanced explanation for the failures of current models.
 
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To me,
Heat death of the universe is an interesting theory and if there was a Big Bang, it seems like a reasonably poetic balancing of opposites to end it all with a fade to silence.

In my earlier post in this thread I mentioned nothing and everything being identical. When there is at last pure nothingness or silence, it seems to me that everything including every possible existence would be contained in the nothing which is the seed for the next explosion of creativity into something. A "thing" is a differentiation or a contrast with something else - alternating boundaries and spaces - semantics - oscillations between symbol and interpretation of symbol. "No thing" exists only as a contrast to "some thing". If the universe becomes nothing it necessarily creates the negation of that. Another trick to think of it mathematically is to consider that 0 is a larger set than infinite because +infinity and -infinity added together = 0. So zero could be thought of as the set of all real numbers which is infinite and every number away from zero is a slightly smaller set of infinity. But this is really nonsense anyway because the definition of infinite means no boundary and if there is no boundary there can be no comparison.

It could be that our universe is on or inside a black hole that is itself dissipating. How weird is it that the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole for the mass of our universe equals the age of our universe??? Maybe every black hole viewed from the outside looks like a black hole but viewed from the inside appears to be a white hole with a Big Bang initiation? The light cone viewed from any point within would appear to stretch back a time equal to the radius when viewed externally. This black hole could be the manifestation of a proton in a larger reality with our galaxies forming the substance of the subatomic particles in the next level up. Perhaps scientists in the universe the next level up are presently loading us into a particle accelerator and about to smash us to bits in a few moments but due to time dilation it appears from our perspective that we undergo heat death. Who knows?

Anyway, I am a long ways from being convinced this is how it will all end despite the attractiveness of it from a balancing of opposites perspective. It seems that dark matter and dark energy are just patches on holes in existing theories. I have a feeling there is a more complex and nuanced explanation for the failures of current models.

I think you've hit the nail on the head perfectly. A major problem is that we remain entrapped by dualistic thinking, when in reality all is part of one thing at the fundamental level, and that applies to "us" too. In the same sense, rebirth seems pretty likely even from a 'materialistic standpoint' if there was nothing before birth, and then something, surely that can happen again and so with the universe. Essentially, this 'nothing' is the ground state of all potential happenings.
 
That's horrible. My condolences to you. Must be a tough time for you.



Many whom have had an NDE speaks of having a variety extra-sensory input that are not consistent with how they perceive it in real life. Like seeing colours they cant describe, or light rays that that emit sounds, as well. Also, having a 360¤ vision and can see everything around them. And then to the question about time. Many NDE'ers claim that they have a altered perception of how they perceive time in their NDE, saying that; "time doesn't matter here, it is not linear, and I were able to see different time-lines" etc.
When they come back from their NDE they have a hard time to explain these new "senses" they had, and cant find words to explain them. The part with the non-linear time being the hardest one to explain.
Also, many NDE'ers say that they spent hours, on hours, on the "other side". But on "this side" they were just dead for a 10-15min minutes, sometimes. So, the relativity of time in the afterlife seems hard to get a grip on.
Thanks for the condolences.
 
To me,


I think you've hit the nail on the head perfectly. A major problem is that we remain entrapped by dualistic thinking, when in reality all is part of one thing at the fundamental level, and that applies to "us" too. In the same sense, rebirth seems pretty likely even from a 'materialistic standpoint' if there was nothing before birth, and then something, surely that can happen again and so with the universe. Essentially, this 'nothing' is the ground state of all potential happenings.
But should a new universe be born again nothing remains of the previous one according to current thinking. Read through the links I posted or pick up the cosmology book I also mentioned.
 
But should a new universe be born again nothing remains of the previous one according to current thinking. Read through the links I posted or pick up the cosmology book I also mentioned.

I'm not pretending to know the answer, mate. Just musing. Though I agree with what Arouet has raised before in that there must be some sort of eternal constant to keep things in relative order. (I hope I haven't misquoted you there, A.) Also, more importantly, I'm sorry to hear about your wife. Whatever differences you and I and others have on the forum, losing a loved one in such a way is awful, and something that I would not wish on anyone.
 
Heat death of the universe is an interesting theory and if there was a Big Bang, it seems like a reasonably poetic balancing of opposites to end it all with a fade to silence.
There's no poetry involved anymore than a digital watch whose battery has run down. You are in a sense anthropomorphizing using such language.

In my earlier post in this thread I mentioned nothing and everything being identical. When there is at last pure nothingness or silence, it seems to me that everything including every possible existence would be contained in the nothing which is the seed for the next explosion of creativity into something. A "thing" is a differentiation or a contrast with something else - alternating boundaries and spaces - semantics - oscillations between symbol and interpretation of symbol. "No thing" exists only as a contrast to "some thing". If the universe becomes nothing it necessarily creates the negation of that. Another trick to think of it mathematically is to consider that 0 is a larger set than infinite because +infinity and -infinity added together = 0. So zero could be thought of as the set of all real numbers which is infinite and every number away from zero is a slightly smaller set of infinity. But this is really nonsense anyway because the definition of infinite means no boundary and if there is no boundary there can be no comparison.
There will be something.
If this universe matures as current thinking goes then what will remain are a sea of low energy particles of maximum entropy (second law of thermodynamics,), a state of equilibrium, (or uniform temperature), where no work can be done. Even if none of this is true we have high confidence the only known universe will carry on for an extremely long time and that's a parameter that I think should be added in when thinking about how long ones maybe not so immortal consciousness will last.
 
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I'm not pretending to know the answer, mate. Just musing. Though I agree with what Arouet has raised before in that there must be some sort of eternal constant to keep things in relative order. (I hope I haven't misquoted you there, A.) Also, more importantly, I'm sorry to hear about your wife. Whatever differences you and I and others have on the forum, losing a loved one in such a way is awful, and something that I would not wish on anyone.
It certainly is awful especially when it's discovered unexpectedly. She only lived for 7 weeks more.
 
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