Puzzling NDE questions

Be well always, without knowing any pain, nor face any obstacles would be terrible because we would not value the good and would have no merit in what we do.
 
Be well always, without knowing any pain, nor face any obstacles would be terrible because we would not value the good and would have no merit in what we do.

I've never seen the validity of that argument, though I know it's a popular spiritual meme. It's pretty easy to refute as well. I don't need to suffer in order to be happy. Take a simple but illustrative case of dogs out on a hillside walk with their owners. Watch any well loved and cared for dog in that situation and you'll see that they are instinctively joyous. Dogs may have a lot to tell us about how to live joyously, imo.Just watch them. Bounding along, tails wagging and erect, tongues lolling. They are in sheer heaven. Do they need cancer and loss and pain to live fulfilled lives? Of course not. The argument seems to me preposterous and daft.
 
Our identities... Sure. What about the experiences though? Are traumatizing events and horrific experiences going to vanish in a puff of smoke?

One of the most optimistic view on this subject is that on the "other side" is like walking out of a movie theater ... But there's also evidence that some people don't seem able to get up from their movie chairs and walk away, to continue the metaphor. At least for quite some "time", while processing the events in the "movie". I think it's difficult to generalize.

This is a question of "what creates the negative" at its root. First of all, pain has a lot to do with it. And pain is a very specific biological incentive for risk aversion. Of course that doesn't explain why the risk is there in the first place. A number of NDEs have made such statements as the person felt that all negativity was being "vacuumed out" of their heads in the NDE state. And the OOBE adept Yram once stated that even to conceive of a negative thought deep in the spiritual world would be to plummet out of it back towards earth. I find such thoughts intriguing. It's almost as if earth is an existential pole at which the possibility of sour experience concentrates.

But this is all speculation.
 
I've never seen the validity of that argument, though I know it's a popular spiritual meme. It's pretty easy to refute as well. I don't need to suffer in order to be happy. Take a simple but illustrative case of dogs out on a hillside walk with their owners. Watch any well loved and cared for dog in that situation and you'll see that they are instinctively joyous. Dogs may have a lot to tell us about how to live joyously, imo.Just watch them. Bounding along, tails wagging and erect, tongues lolling. They are in sheer heaven. Do they need cancer and loss and pain to live fulfilled lives? Of course not. The argument seems to me preposterous and daft.

We humans are not dogs. Your comment implies that you are not wise enough. Always get what you want would make unhappy. You do not know the phrase "A smooth it never made a skillful mariner."
 
We humans are not dogs. Your comment implies that you are not wise enough. Always get what you want would make unhappy. You do not know the phrase "A smooth it never made a skillful mariner."

Of course you basically didn't address the point at all, because it in essence disconfirms your case. Sadness, grief and suffering are not necessary for happiness...as animals and children show us ALL the time. As for us "not being dogs" all this illustrates is that we've loaded our minds full of destructive idea-viruses like the above.
 
Of course you basically didn't address the point at all, because it in essence disconfirms your case. Sadness, grief and suffering are not necessary for happiness...as animals and children show us ALL the time. As for us "not being dogs" all this illustrates is that we've loaded our minds full of destructive idea-viruses like the above.

Your you still do not understand my point .
 
The dogs have obstacles in their lives. Is an immature idea that without obstacles or resistance everything would be perfect...
 
The dogs have obstacles in their lives. Is an immature idea that without obstacles or resistance everything would be perfect...

You are so right, Haruhi. Look at this poor guy, WIthout suffering, he'd be NOTHING.

happy-dog.jpg
 
But dogs have still obstacles in their lives ...

...I would say that most well cared for pet dogs have few obstacles and are as happy if not happier than wild dogs, so I don't think that argument holds up well at all.

Indeed, I'd have to say that it seems to me exactly the opposite argument that holds up. Dogs are capable of being unconditionally joyous precisely *because* they live utterly in the moment. They do not have the human mind-virus of "comparing" one experience with another experience at another time (usually)...ie either in terms of dread or anticipation. And if a dog's joy is ever increased by comparison, I would say it only happens by comparison with other joyous experience...comparison with dreaded experience simply puts it "in the moment" of that dread, and dread is what they experience NOW.

So, whatever role suffering may play in life (if any) as viewed from a putatively transcendent, nondual reality, I very much doubt it has the slightest thing to do with simply expression of joy or "maturity." That just seems like a human anthropomorphism. What dogs seem to "teach" us is that if we could somehow live in the now, our lives would be capable of being joyous, at least most of the time. This state is *sometimes* achieved in dreams, where the comparison of memory is lost, and seems to be achieved in certain NDEs, where the experience of the moment, of the NOW, overrules all other considerations or perceptions.

I've always thought that a good candidate for heaven would be a truly joyous "groundhog day" that constantly repeats, but you are never aware of the repetition, because you are constantly living in the "now." Think about it. I reckon it's as good a definition of heaven for a finite being as can be conceived.
 
...I would say that most well cared for pet dogs have few obstacles and are as happy if not happier than wild dogs, so I don't think that argument holds up well at all.

Indeed, I'd have to say that it seems to me exactly the opposite argument that holds up. Dogs are capable of being unconditionally joyous precisely *because* they live utterly in the moment. They do not have the human mind-virus of "comparing" one experience with another experience at another time (usually)...ie either in terms of dread or anticipation. And if a dog's joy is ever increased by comparison, I would say it only happens by comparison with other joyous experience...comparison with dreaded experience simply puts it "in the moment" of that dread, and dread is what they experience NOW.

So, whatever role suffering may play in life (if any) as viewed from a putatively transcendent, nondual reality, I very much doubt it has the slightest thing to do with simply expression of joy or "maturity." That just seems like a human anthropomorphism. What dogs seem to "teach" us is that if we could somehow live in the now, our lives would be capable of being joyous, at least most of the time. This state is *sometimes* achieved in dreams, where the comparison of memory is lost, and seems to be achieved in certain NDEs, where the experience of the moment, of the NOW, overrules all other considerations or perceptions.
I agree, and I feel that a sort of residual Christian sentiment can justify the idea that suffering is useful! Suffering is distributed with barely the slightest correlation with the behaviour of the human or animal in question - so I think it is hard to know how it fits into the bigger picture.

Although I am pretty well convinced that there is a larger non-material reality, I don't think it's workings are understood at all well.

David
 
I agree, and I feel that a sort of residual Christian sentiment can justify the idea that suffering is useful! Suffering is distributed with barely the slightest correlation with the behaviour of the human or animal in question - so I think it is hard to know how it fits into the bigger picture.

Although I am pretty well convinced that there is a larger non-material reality, I don't think it's workings are understood at all well.

David
Suffering can certainly be useful, warning us that something is wrong and we can certainly use it to learn and develop understanding, empathy and strength if we are able to process it in a constructive way. I'm with Kai in that I don't see it as necessary for development or to appreciate life.
 
The puzzling part is that if one takes NDEs seriously, one comes to a world that has these properties, from a world that does not appear to have these properties at all. How many times have we heard "And all the pain, suffering, and fear were simply gone." It's a conundrum.
 
The puzzling part is that if one takes NDEs seriously, one comes to a world that has these properties, from a world that does not appear to have these properties at all. How many times have we heard "And all the pain, suffering, and fear were simply gone." It's a conundrum.
I don't see the conundrum. Please explain.
 

But then it wouldn't be a dog? There might be a dog-like creature inhabiting a different imaginary realm with different rules that could feel joy and be incapable of also feeling pain, but that's not how it works here. Here, pain and pleasure come as a package deal - a binary opposition - a consequence of a sensitive nervous system.

The capacity to feel or experience anything at all necessarily opens you up to feel or experience in terms of binary oppositions.
 
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