Rick DeLano’s Terrific Quantum Science Film Tainted by Catholic Nonsense |454|

#41
not the least of which is that a person may choose to continue to operate within their religion even after they reach the point in their development of seeing through the exoteric and grasping the esoteric.
Yeah, I'm not sure you can really separate the two. If you look through history, the mystics always build off the exoteric. Maybe we could say that the esoteric transcends but doesn't invalidate the exoteric. And maybe that simple, sometimes childish exoteric faith is important somehow. I don't know.

God got mad at the human race for eating a piece of fruit in Armenia 6,000 years ago. He got so mad that he condemned everybody to internal damnation, except he kind of felt bad about this afterward, so he sent part of himself down to have it tortured to death, which somehow made it all right. Except not really, because if you don’t buy the story, you’re still going to fry forever. Does that make any sense? Of course it doesn’t
To paraphrase C.S. Lewis: The bible is a book for grown ups. It's difficult. It's challenging. As are the Upanishads, the Gita, the Greek Myths, the Zahor, the Tao Te Ching etc. They have centuries or millennia of interpretive tradition behind them. This tradition cannot be ignored as it is integral to the religion in question. We could say the same about Shakespeare, I suppose. (Or Dostoevsky! Now that's a good comparison, yes.)

The fall narrative, when read as a story for grown ups, has some rather interesting ideas, in my view, about the development of humanity and our relationship to the natural world and what may lie beyond.

It can be read in toto here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV
 
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#42
Alex, might you be interested in talking to a guy I came across who started as a sociologist studying international terrorism, moved into taking a look a Greek 'spiritualist' type faith healer and then developed an interest in the Orthodox monks of Mount Athos - a process that led him back to the Church of his youth? His take is that Orthodox monasticism represents a Western path of meditation and spirituality that equals anything found in Autobiography of a Yogi (with all the bells and whistles). He's also into transpersonal psychology, etc. and admits that the Orthodox Church has a big problem with intolerance.

Otherwise, if you were interested in having a conversation with someone more theologically schooled, how about the Anglican nun, Sister Benedicta Ward? You wouldn't be mean to a nun would you? :)
 
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#43
Alex, might you be interested in talking to a guy I came across who started as a sociologist studying international terrorism, moved into taking a look a Greek 'spiritualist' type faith healer and then developed an interest in the Orthodox monks of Mount Athos - a process that led him back to the Church of his youth? His take is that Orthodox monasticism represents a Western path of meditation and spirituality that equals anything found in Autobiography of a Yogi (with all the bells and whistles). He's also into transpersonal psychology, etc. and admits that the Orthodox Church has a big problem with intolerance.

Otherwise, if you were interested in having a conversation with someone more theologically schooled, how about the Anglican nun, Sister Benedicta Ward? You wouldn't be mean to a nun would you? :)
I forgot to post any links.

Kyriacos Markides


https://umaine.edu/sociology/faculty-and-staff/kyriacos-markides/

EASTERN ORTHODOX MYSTICISM AND. TRANSPERSONAL THEORY
http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-40-08-02-178.pdf

Dr Benedicta Ward

http://www.hmc.ox.ac.uk/people/dr-benedicta-ward/
 
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#44
Rick DeLano’s Terrific Quantum Science Film Tainted by Catholic Nonsense |454|
by Alex Tsakiris | Jun 30 | Consciousness Science
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Rick DeLano’s movie, The End of Quantum Reality makes a strong case against scientific materialism, but then there’s the Catholic thing.
photo by: Skeptiko
[Clip 00:00:00- 00:00:34]
That’s South Park talking about what it’s like to go back to Catholic Church today. It has a connection with today’s interview with Rick DeLano, who has a really outstanding new science movie out called The End of Quantum Reality, about the work of Dr. Wolfgang Smith. Well, the connection is that even though it’s a great science film, with beautiful cinematography, I can’t stop laughing about the Catholic thing.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:01] You did a great job of educating us on something that we always know, and that is how solid quantum physics is, because one of the tricks that’s been done here to get away from the philosophical implications of quantum physics, is to make it sound woo-woo or fluffy.
You just don’t get it, Rick. I mean, you don’t understand why non-Christians like me, are just stunned how any really bright, intelligent person that you are, can buy into such a wacky cosmology.

Rick DeLano: [00:01:40] There is no remote point of congruence between the straw man on your screen and the actual content of Christian revelation. Any Christian knows that instantaneously.
 
#45
Not giving nonsense a pass is what truth is all about. Our present world needs lots of that.

Although DeLano did not directly advocate Catholicism, it was done on the sly. After all, how could the smartest man in the world, Smith, become a Catholic if Catholicism is not the smartest thing in the world?

Kept waiting for his defense of the strawman allegation and for him to explain how Catholicism is not about Adam, Eve, and Jesus. Thanks for expressing my frustration by holding his feet to the fire.

How can it be smart to practice a religion that is not only nonsensical, but has this history? https://www.asifthinkingmatters.com/solving-the-big-questions-second-edition/29-religion-unleashed

Excellent interview Alex. Your patience and graciousness is remarkable.
 

Alex

Administrator
#46
I would say that a lot of Christians go along with some of the crazy dogma, and kind of skip over it
yeah that was my point... and I guess we've come to accept this at the thanksgiving dinner table but it's harder to hear from an intellectual who's written and produced an excellent film on quantum physics. I mean rick is not a lightweight thinker... so why is he incapable of responding to such a basic argument from a fellow christian like richard smoley
 
#47
Not giving nonsense a pass is what truth is all about. Our present world needs lots of that.

Although DeLano did not directly advocate Catholicism, it was done on the sly. After all, how could the smartest man in the world, Smith, become a Catholic if Catholicism is not the smartest thing in the world?

Kept waiting for his defense of the strawman allegation and for him to explain how Catholicism is not about Adam, Eve, and Jesus. Thanks for expressing my frustration by holding his feet to the fire.

How can it be smart to practice a religion that is not only nonsensical, but has this history? https://www.asifthinkingmatters.com/solving-the-big-questions-second-edition/29-religion-unleashed

Excellent interview Alex. Your patience and graciousness is remarkable.
Personally, I fail to see how bashing religion can possibly count as being iconoclastic these days. (It depends where you live, of course.)
 

Alex

Administrator
#48
And that's my point--any deep thinker would be nuts to take the Bible literally.
ok but again we're talkin about a quote from a highly-regarded christian religious scholar... I mean smoley understands that it's allegory. I think his point cuts deeper... what is this allegory telling us about christian cosmology? do we want to be a part of a religion built around such a worldview? I think what's smoley is saying... or at least my interpretation... is that if we allow ourselves the spiritual freedom to interpret these stories in a way that's meaningful to our spiritual development then we can discover our christ consciousness, but if we limit ourselves to the wacky christian religious dogma we're shackled with this kind of nonsense we've heard since we were in sunday school.


maybe listening to the whole interview will put it in context:
A Course in Miracles (Video Interview with Richard Smoley ...
 

Alex

Administrator
#50
Alex, might you be interested in talking to a guy I came across who started as a sociologist studying international terrorism, moved into taking a look a Greek 'spiritualist' type faith healer and then developed an interest in the Orthodox monks of Mount Athos - a process that led him back to the Church of his youth? His take is that Orthodox monasticism represents a Western path of meditation and spirituality that equals anything found in Autobiography of a Yogi (with all the bells and whistles). He's also into transpersonal psychology, etc. and admits that the Orthodox Church has a big problem with intolerance.

Otherwise, if you were interested in having a conversation with someone more theologically schooled, how about the Anglican nun, Sister Benedicta Ward? You wouldn't be mean to a nun would you? :)
sure... I mean if you really wanted to hear that interview and we're willing to do some work to make it happen I'd be happy to do it, but I'm not sure a lot of folks are interested in hearing me hammer on this point.

I like the stripped-down version -- god doesn't like crowds ( half joking, half not... I mean the joke part is it's ridiculously presumptuous to think that I or anyone else would know what god likes, on the other hand it points out that this is exactly what religious institutions are doing so why shouldn't I)

So if the nun wants to come out and talk about that and about how the real purpose of the church is to create a community that supports the deep spiritual insights that come from cloistering away of few spiritual seekers in a monastery... well I guess we could talk about that... but that's so so far from how most people understand christianity.
 
#52
sure... I mean if you really wanted to hear that interview and we're willing to do some work to make it happen I'd be happy to do it, but I'm not sure a lot of folks are interested in hearing me hammer on this point.

I like the stripped-down version -- god doesn't like crowds.

So if the nun wants to come out and talk about that and about how the real purpose of the church is to create a community that supports the deep spiritual insights that come from cloistering away of few spiritual seekers in a monastery... well I guess we could talk about that... but that's so so far from how most people understand christianity.
I thought the Greek guy might get your interest more.... or is that stereotyping?
 
#55
sure... I mean if you really wanted to hear that interview and we're willing to do some work to make it happen I'd be happy to do it, but I'm not sure a lot of folks are interested in hearing me hammer on this point.
That's a wonderfully democratic attitude. But y'know if it's something only like three people would be interested in.... as for the Greek guy, he's a sociologist, into parapsychology, left the Church for many years, and admits its limitations/problems.
 
#56
I stumbled on this interesting piece by a Reverend that bears on the question of how honest Rick was being about the Smoley quote. I think it’s worth a read in light of the discussion. BTW, totally off topic, anybody watch the new Unsolved Mysteries episode about the UFO encounters in Great Barrington, MA in ‘69? Pretty mind blowing!

Because of Adam’s disobedience, all human beings thereafter are born in sin. Their only salvation is to believe that God sent his only son Jesus Christ into the world to offer himself up as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. So everyone thereafter is branded by Adam’s disobedience and only those who confess their sins and accept Jesus as their Savior will be saved from eternal damnation. It is about obedience, not independence, about fleeing from guilt and judgment, not seeking self-knowledge that could provide enlightenment and personal integration. Belief that everyone is born in sin covers a multitude of sins, and covers up a multitude of developmentally normal issues every child experiences – like fitting in, feeling secure, exploring one’s own body, questioning authority, becoming authentically oneself.

For Christians with authoritarian tendencies, faith is about having the right belief, more than knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Here obedience to correct belief trumps the pursuit of truth. Conformity is expected. Curiosity is suspected.
Here’s the article in full: https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/0...emocratic-and-others-authoritarian/#gsc.tab=0
 
#57
I stumbled on this interesting piece by a Reverend that bears on the question of how honest Rick was being about the Smoley quote. I think it’s worth a read in light of the discussion. BTW, totally off topic, anybody watch the new Unsolved Mysteries episode about the UFO encounters in Great Barrington, MA in ‘69? Pretty mind blowing!



Here’s the article in full: https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/0...emocratic-and-others-authoritarian/#gsc.tab=0
And yet, because of reincarnation, many humans are born somewhat 'messed-up' by their previous experiences. Not to say that they have sinned, but it does mean that contrary to conventional science, we are not born as a 'blank slate', but bring our past with us into this world. This is a completely different message to the (in my opinion) rather unhelpful Christian teachings which don't shed any light on either the cause or the solution to such issues.
 
#58
And that's my point--any deep thinker would be nuts to take the Bible literally.

From the brilliant Greek Orthodox David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God, p.23:

"The greatest Church Fathers...took it for granted that... Genesis could not be treated literally...but must be read allegorically....Origen of Alexandria (185-254) remarked that one would have to be rather simple to imagine that...God literally planted an orchard...whose fruits conferred wisdom or eternal life... [and witnessed the activities of Adam et al] ....These are figural tales...."

Then Hart gives other important examples of Christian allegorical thinkers throughout history.

There have always been many Christianities. I am fascinated by Docetism. Also by Simone Weil, who refused to be baptized but was profoundly deeper than any institutional thinkers. Fascinated as a scholar of religion, not as a literalist or fundamentalist. Literal interpretations of the Vedas drive me crazy, for example--soooo overly simplistic and even misleading, just like this quote.

Ciao David, I am crazy busy writing a book on theodicy. :)
When I read that, something niggled in the back of my mind, and now I know what it is.

The whole point of an allegory is to pass on some moral ideas using simple language and ideas that can be readily grasped.
The story might not be factual, but the moral should be the same. So what moral was the Genesis story meant to convey?

David
 
#59
I want to go back to what this podcast should have been about - a book by Dr Wolfgang Smith called "Physics and Vertical Causation".

I am reading the book right now. The section of QM is very, very hard to read, and I will have to loop back to it to get more out of it. The problem isn't that the maths is hard, because almost none is shown, but he describes his ideas in terms of philosophical terms such as "hylomorphism". You seem to have to know at least a bit of QM to get what he is talking about at all. However, as I moved on to the later chapters, I started to realise that he really is a deep thinker and probably worth the effort. He also has a long academic career in physics - not just a nut case.

The strangest idea that he proposes is that Special Relativity is wrong! He explains the Michelson-Morely null result by concluding that the Earth really is at a state of rest with respect to the rest of the universe - as in the Copernican understanding of the cosmos. He then uses Mach's principle to square that with our understanding of planetary motions etc. I wish we still had some theoretical physicists on the forum, because I think they could pick al this apart better than I can.

I'd really like one or two of you to pick up this book - cheap in Kindle format - and try to understand it so that we could have a decent discussion about it all.

His conception of reality certainly encompasses a non-physical realm, which contains our minds, but I think he is a Christian, (possibly fairly fundamental), so this is a bit like exploring the ID crowd - you get their ideas out but then discard their Christian views (or not, as you wish). He does in fact refer to to that biological question as a done deal - evolution doesn't cut it - which of course I totally agree with.

David
 
#60
Not to beat a dead horse, but as Rick said we need to use the Bible to get our ideas about Christianity, this is straight from St. Paul in Romans 5: https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/5.htm

Pretty much lays out what Smoley said in more flowery language. This is the cornerstone of a lot of atonement theology and is definitely accepted by the majority of Protestant Christians. Other variants would be in the minority and would likely be seen as “apostate” for their views.
 
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