Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Dec 20, 2016.
There are major concerns with the one study that found large scale voting among illegals:
Here's my bottom line: The POTUS should not be "claiming" anything on an issue such as this.
He could say he's "concerned". That he's asked for an investigation and will report back to the American citizens once complete.
There's a million, leadership-appropriate things he could say on the topic. Sensationalizing isn't appropriate.
I guess my point on this is that you can believe whatever you want about millions of illegal votes in the election. But there is ZERO evidence of any such fraud on that level. ZERO. You have one fellow who says he has evidence but hasn't released it. And you have a study that says there MAY have been significant voter fraud, but not in this election. (And which study MAY be flawed.)
The REAL evidence we do have is that there about 4 documented cases of voter fraud in the 2016 presidential election where one person voted twice in those four cases. That is actual factual evidence. There may have been more cases reported, but I am looking sources that searched professional news aggregating sources following the election for documented instances of voter fraud.
Other REAL evidence we have are state auditor generals who oversee elections saying there was no voter fraud on that level. Do you think the auditors are lying?
So what you have is a belief. But it is not a belief based on evidence. I suppose it can be based on a hunch. But it is not a belief based on ANY facts that you can present.
That is what the news outlets are saying. There is ZERO evidence that millions voted illegally. I will be interested to see the results of the investigation.
Oh I agree... it's not my style to play it fast and loose with details... I'm an engineer after all and was accused just yesterday of being a bit "anal" with the details... lol
But as I repeat endlessly... authority is about telling a story. The best storytellers are not "anal" with meticulous orientation to the facts.
So like I said, I would not claim definitively as Trump has that 3 million illegals voted - though that may well be the case. I would string together several points like I did in my post above and by then everyone would have tuned out or fallen asleep.
In other words, I excuse the lack of resolution in his "facts" because the overall picture painted is a correct and powerful bit of "art" - maybe a bit post modern style - but correct.
I don't know. The leaders I've respected in my life certainly had the ability to inspire, story-tell, etc. However, at the end of the day the foundation that made them most inspiring was trust. Spin and sensationalism, in all forms, seems something a leader should use sparingly and judiciously..... if at all.
I agree... far greater men than Trump have walked the earth in more humble forms, and would doubtless make better leaders. There is however, a difference between Trump's sensationalism and Obama's. Obama's were carefully crafted by teams of people focused on manipulating the public. Trumps are straight from the heart through twitter to the American people. They're what he really believes and they are based on facts and trends even if not 100% true on the face of it. Voter fraud is an issue and has been for a long time. Maybe the number wasn't 3 million but it also was not "0". The Democrats didn't flood the nation with illegals and then claim voter ID is racist for no reason.
One more point. My mom-in-law worked as an election official for about 20 years. She oversaw the local elections, helped with the machines, etc. The people working with her had also been working there for decades. I don't see these folks being hoodwinked. This is a rural area.
I also lived in a small city (75,000) and the election officials were much the same. Very serious older folks. I don't see rampant fraud in a situation like that.
What is it like in your voting location? Hurm or anyone else? What is it like where you vote? Do you see it as the type of location where rampant fraud can occur?
I'm also in a rural area and the volunteers are exactly as you describe. But not all areas are run by good ole honest gramps and granny. James O'keefe did a few exposes on this... voting as M&M and whatnot...
Also there is the issue with the voting machines, and gramps and granny don't have to be involved in that. http://blackboxvoting.org/
Okay I have to work!!
A brilliant analysis of this whirlwind of mutual "fake news" accusations we're experiencing now.
Right. But now you are off of your point. That people voted illegally. Black box issues are not what Trump implied.
Plus. Unless you are affirming that it was 3-5 million illegal aliens who voted (which I doubt you are) then any illegal votes are likely to offset one another. You are just as likely to have as many fake democrat votes as republican ones.
I was wrong about the votes. Trump cleared it up saying:
“We’re gonna launch an investigation to find out, and then the next time — and I will say this: Of those votes cast, none of them come to me. None of them come to me. They would all be for the other side. None of them come to me.”
He knows the result of the investigation already?
I feel I need to balance my earlier comment, which perhaps should be seen against my German background and a widespread anxious sentiment coming from Germany via its media in particular, mainly because of historical reasons. Using the word "Nazi" is simply my dramatic license to draw attention to a potential danger (no offence intended).
The fact is that the USA are a different society than Germany was in the thirties. Tonight I saw a great movie called "Manchester by the Sea", another (subtle and humble) testimony for America's powerful cultural backbone, which is the real reason why the country is already great, not because of its military or economic strength. There can be no way to view Trump voters negatively or "deplorable". People are people who in this case were given the very limited choice of two evils. The problem lies in demagogy swaying a large part of the population and by default electing a leader who then feels obliged to make good on his demagogy, a reality show star with an ego anxious not to affect his popularity rating. He must now be seen to make good on his ludicrous promises (like the wall for example). And many have thought practical consideration would make him somehow modify his plans. Quite the opposite and this is what Western European leaders are so afraid of.
There is of course the possibility when a position based on rhetoric, demagogy and fantasy rather than sound assessment of reality that it may collapse in on itself, assisted by many sane and sound individuals who have simply stopped believing in spin and propaganda. Lets hope so. However, tyrants with an inflated ego have their own build in mechanics and with powerful allies and Machiavellian cunning can still cause an end to democracy, which some analyst are already predicting.
Jurgen, wonderful restatement of your position. I think you may have hit very close to the mark.
... and this is what makes America really great:
Haha - humour at its wackiest. Was it that different from the real thing?
Hi Hurm, appreciate your good grace and willingness to engage. What I find enraging about Trump can be found, once again, in one of his most recent utterances (Muir Interview - full transcript):
DAVID MUIR: ... what I'm asking that -- when you say in your opinion millions of illegal votes, that is something that is extremely fundamental to our functioning democracy, a fair and free election.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Sure. Sure. Sure.
DAVID MUIR: You say you're gonna launch an investigation.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Sure, done.
DAVID MUIR: What you have presented so far has been debunked. It's been called ...
DAVID MUIR: ... false.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, it hasn't. Take a look at the Pew reports.
DAVID MUIR: I called the author of the Pew report last night. And he told me that they found no evidence of voter ...
DAVID MUIR: ... fraud.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Really? Then why did he write the report?
DAVID MUIR: He said no evidence of voter fraud.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Excuse me, then why did he write the report?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: According to Pew report, then he's -- then he's groveling again. You know, I always talk about the reporters that grovel when they wanna write something that you wanna hear but not necessarily millions of people wanna hear or have to hear.
and then later ... "Now, you're telling me Pew report has all of a sudden changed."
This use of a report to support a belief and then the incredulous rejection of the author for changing the report, when no such change has occurred, is classic Trump. Precisely the same outrageous tactic used in the whole Serge Kovaleski fiasco.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, not at all because they didn't come to me. Believe me. Those were Hillary votes. And if you look at it they all voted for Hillary. They all voted for Hillary. They didn't vote for me. I don't believe I got one. Okay, these are people that voted for Hillary Clinton. And if they didn't vote, it would've been different in the popular.
Which malf has already highlighted in another quote from this week. It is a baseless assertion that is held up as a truth. The danger for us all is that Trump acts impulsively from these positions in a world that will be all too ready to exploit such loose talk.
Separate names with a comma.