Robert Forte, The Softer Side of CIA Psychedelic Mind Control |407|

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Robert Forte, The Softer Side of CIA Psychedelic Mind Control |407|
by Alex Tsakiris | Apr 9 | Consciousness Research, Uncategorized
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Robert Forte has lived at the center of the psychedelics/entheogens/mind control revolution.
photo by: Skeptiko
Do you know where you are, right now?
I’m in a drug trial.
What do you think is wrong with you?
I’m sick. That I don’t matter.

That’s Emma Stone and Jonah Hill participating in a futuristic drug experiment in the Netflix series, Maniac.
What would you say this trial is showing you about yourself?
Is this therapy now?
It’s not therapy, it’s science.

Science indeed. I mention that the show is futuristic but it’s cleverly not futuristic because, as many of you know, the history of government sponsored, pharmaceutical-based, social engineering mind-control stuff is well established.
But we might even take it one step further, as today’s guest Robert Forte does, and say that the history of psychedelic drugs is a microcosm of the history of religion (Entheogens and the Future of Religion).
Alex Tsakiris: I really want to understand how you’re juggling these two things, because what I hear from Wasson is this both and kind of thing. Yeah, he’s a lying ass, CIA lifetime player, yes, but I also get the sense that he’s someone who either before, during or after, has woken up to the larger reality that he’s stumbled into or that he’s been pushed into.
Robert Forte: Well, I’m glad you put it that way because I’m still kind of… when I think back to my meetings with Wasson, he had a very peculiar personality around me. I think there was some genuine affection and respect for me as a young man, who really wanted to understand what was going on. You know, I don’t really know, I’d really love to go back into his archives and read more of his letters.
I gave a lecture in New York shortly after my realization of his relationship to the American fascists and then my access to the archives was denied.

Now, this is another one of those level-3 Skeptiko conversations that kind of goes in a lot of different directions, including the LSD movement versus the LSD movements. We talk a lot about Timothy Leary, since today’s guest spent quite a bit of time with him. We talk about his early history. His experience with the CIA. His claim that the CIA wasn’t all bad in the early ‘50s but then they turned bad and he turned against them. And I love Leary’s quote that a third of what he said was bullshit, a third of what he said was dead wrong and a third of what he said was a base hit, but a 333-batting average makes you a Hall of Famer.
We also talk about Aleister Crowley and whether he really was the sick puppy he seems to be and how he’s involved in this mind-control thing.
And of course, we talk about Robert’s amazing journey through this entire psychedelics, entheogen thing, including his relationship with clandestine CIA operative, Gordon Wasson.
We also talk about Ram Dass, Neem Karoli Baba and contrast Ram Dass to Timothy Leary in some ways you might find interesting if you’re at all into that stuff.
This guy Robert Forte is quite an amazing figure in history that you probably haven’t heard about. Stick around for my interview. I think you’ll really enjoy it.
 
#2
Alex said: But what he (Whitley Streiber) said just really stuck with me from a spiritual side, he said, “These guys don’t realize what they’re doing to their soul.”
Exactly. I feel the same way about those who engage in so called, "Enhanced Interrogation" Particularly if the subjected person is innocent. Knowing what I know about God's law of Karma I'd quit such a job as interrogator/torturer and rather dig ditches instead.
 
#3
Interesting interview, maybe a little too scattered though.

Psychedelics? First off, IMO, If you aren't experienced, you should not be commenting on them because you have no idea what it is. You can't imagine.

The thing about psychedelics is that, given good material and a sufficient dose, they are going to work and they are going to work right now. Once you've ingested them, you've gone and done it. It's not meditation, etc where you can dip your toe in and out or jerk yourself around for years. With psychedelics, there ain't no guru telling you what's what. There's only you and your guardian angels/spirits. Psychedelics really are, in many ways, the archetypical hero's journey compressed into a day or two.

But not everyone who embarks on the hero's journey makes it all the way. There are so many means of becoming lost; which is true of non-psychedelic life as well. My point is that psychedelics aren't going to instantly transform anyone into anything that a person wasn't already. The substances are merely going to intensify the expression and experience of the deeper self, for good, bad, beautiful, ugly, quick, stupid, clear, delusional. IMO, the real work happens the good old fashioned way; sober, dedicated, takes time, takes honest reflection, takes rational assessment, takes traditional reading, listening, learning, reflecting, etc - then the psychedelic amps all of that up to the next level for a while. You can burn super high octane fuel in a well built race car and it gives you an edge, but if you put it in an cheap regular car, you just might blow a piston.

All of that said, using these things responsibly and in sufficient dosage WILL open doors to extended consciousness....for better or worse. There's is no two ways about it and anyone who says otherwise is not experienced. However, I can't emphasize this enough, the extended consciousness is always coming through the filter of YOU. If you are a weak, undisciplined, messy filter, then the expression of extended consciousness is going to be garbled and confusing at best.

I think I heard Mr. Forte talking along the same lines when discussing Leary, et al. Leary post-psychedelics was, at core, still the same Leary as pre-psychedelics. Ditto "Ram Das" and the rest of them.

Psychedelics are the flying saucer that take you to the next world. A tool. Where ever they take you, in this world or the next, or the next, there you are. The experiencer and the experienced are ONE.

I definitely heard Mr. Forte make another key point. Paraphrasing, when you are communicating - or trying to - to others in this normal consensus earth reality, you are instantly thrust back into the realm of politics and metaphors and of inflated ego importance. This is why the core old self always comes right back to the surface, even if a day before you were wholly immersed in an ineffable experience of extended consciousness. Maybe the art forms can get past this problem on occasions when a talented artist is really "on", but intellectual talking? I think never.
 
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#4
I am getting very bogged down by this long video.

1) So far it seems to be gossip about people, many of whose names are new to me.

2) How established is it that Timothy Leary was co-opted by the CIA? Also, what exactly does that mean - did he just give them the information he had learned from doing psychedelics, or did he help them design abusive studies?

IMHO this was inside baseball for hard core addicts.

Can anyone tell me where, if anywhere I should go in the video to find something more interesting?

David
 
#5
I'm wondering what you think about the role of entheogens and spirituality?

Are entheogens giving us a glimpse of the divine or are they clouding our vision of it?
I don't understand why people think drugs that are known to cause hallucinations could be giving a reliable view into other realms. What is the use of going to another realm while hallucinating? What can you reliably learn from that?

I can sort of understand that if drugs can show you that what we think of reality is an illusion produced by the mind, that could be helpful.

But, while I don't know about entheogens, I do know that the people who tried to turn me on to other illegal drugs were among the worst people I have met, none of them ever did me any good, and my life would not be any worse and probably somewhat better had I never met them, People who advocate for the victims in every international conflict seem to turn a blind eye to the victims of drug gangs and support, through purchases of illegal drugs, criminal organizations which are involved in more than just pushing addictive drugs that destroy lives, they are involved in human trafficking, subverting governments, and many other horrible crimes. I don't know where people get entheogens, but if they they get them from illegal sources, that is not going to help them spiritually, it is going to cause a lot of bad karma.


https://play.google.com/music/preview/Tbigxs2bf7udippy56gs23s24jm

Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (Remastered)​
The Beatles​
Lyrics​
Picture yourself in a boat on a river​
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies​
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly​
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes​
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green​
Towering over your head​
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes​
And she's gone​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain​
Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies​
Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers​
That grow so incredibly high​
Newspaper taxis appear on the shore​
Waiting to take you away​
Climb in the back with your head in the clouds​
And you're gone​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Picture yourself on a train in a station​
With plasticine porters with looking glass ties​
Suddenly someone is there at the turnstile​
The girl with the kaleidoscope eyes​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Ah​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
Lucy in the sky with diamonds​
 
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#6
I don't understand why people think drugs that are known to cause hallucinations could be giving a reliable view into other realms. What is the use going to another realm while hallucinating? What can you reliably learn from that?
Is it possible to define a clear distinction between an hallucination and a view into other realms? Agreed they are somewhat dangerous.

David
 
#7
Is it possible to define a clear distinction between an hallucination and a view into other realms? Agreed they are somewhat dangerous.

David
I knew you were going to ask this because you asked it before, which is why I re-posted the lyrics to that song.

In the other realms, there are girls but they don't have kaleidescope eyes. There are skies, but they are not marmalade. And there are no rocking horse people eating marshmallow pies.
 
#8
I knew you were going to ask this because you asked it before, which is why I re-posted the lyrics to that song.

In the other realms, there are girls but they don't have kaleidescope eyes. There are skies, but they are not marmalade. And there are no rocking horse people eating marshmallow pies.
The term "Hallucinogen" is a misnomer. "Psychedelic" is the better descriptor.

The Beatles don't describe any trip I've ever had. If their description was accurate, I wouldn't touch the stuff. It sounds more like smoking a lot of opium. Like I said, if you haven't had the experience, you shouldn't talk about it that way. If you had the experience you can't talk about because there really isn't language to describe it.
 
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#9
I find the talk about "The Fascists" to be stupid and annoying, yet typical hippy conspiracy theorist clap trap. It detracts from good points that Mr. Forte has to offer.

I would like to hear how Mr. Forte thinks that a nation of hundreds of millions, half of whom are avg intelligence or below, are to be kept safe and satisfied in a world where revolutions and war and pogroms, starvation and other deprivations have been a regular feature from time beyond memory - and predatory/maniacal forces are constantly scheming to manipulate the masses into such tragedies. BTW, the country is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. It was set up that way. Why hippy types perennially fail to understand that escapes me entirely. A direct democracy (amplified via social media) is what gives us dangerous idiots like Ocasio-Cortez and enemy of America Ilhan Omar and a push for a borderless socialist state while offering bribes of endless free stuff. Half of the populace isn't smart enough, motivated enough or well enough educated to make good decisions. The Bell Curve. It's real and it has massive implications. The founders realized the potential and, for that reason, eschewed direct democracy. They were elitists and that's a good thing. DeToqueville observed that the American form of republic would survive until the politicians realized that they could bribe the populace. 180 years later and it's happening. The heck with "mind control" - direct bribes (all the promised free stuff) is proving at least as effective as "The world is going to be like destroyed in 12 years if we don't do something about global warming" + "Racists everywhere!!!!!" + "Rich people are rigging the game!!!!"

Furthermore, why is it always "The Pentagon" or "The CIA" that are responsible for "War"? No other nation on earth is doing anything wrong that the USA must react to? More classic hippy biting the hand that feeds them behavior. Does it not occur to such people that our govt just might be reacting to outside forces that are scheming against, if not actively attacking, our interests that support our opulent way of life, which, in turn, allows people to spend their life studying interesting topics instead of working in the people's factory or potato farm? Idiots!

If you don't want to be mind controlled, then don't be mind controlled. Most people WANT to be mind controlled. They are happier that way. This includes the range of people that believe CNN to those who believe their guru. It removes a lot of angst from their lives. Most people in a state of angst are not only unhappy, but dangerous to themselves and others and to society once a certain critical mass of angst is reached. Look at how the leftists are using global warming BS and the specter of "racism" and wealth inequality, etc to bring about a state of angst and a resulting revolution of sorts, ironically enough, amongst a populace that enjoys more prosperity, equality of justice, freedom and comfort than most people on the planet now and historically. This is evil. But the hippies don't call out this manipulation by fellow leftists. It's always the CIA or some similar BS.

Add to the above the realization, by the govt, that UFOs and psychic forces, etc are real things - all in light of the grim recent history of WW2 and the Soviet Union and the Chinese cultural revolution (all of which killed hundreds of millions and brought unimaginable suffering to yet more). The govt would be irresponsible to not step up and start looking into these matters and how they can be used to protect and bring harmony to the societal structure.

If saying any of that makes me a fascist, then I proudly wear the badge. And yes, obviously, it is possible to be a psychedelic user and not be turned into a stupid hippy (me, for example - I know others like me). I'll take true elites (like Wasson) over hippies any day.

Rant over
 
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#10
The term "Hallucinogen" is a misnomer. "Psychedelic" is the better descriptor.

The Beatles don't describe any trip I've ever had. If their description was accurate, I wouldn't touch the stuff. It sounds more like smoking a lot of opium. Like I said, if you haven't had the experience, you shouldn't talk about it. If you had the experience you can't talk about because there really isn't language to describe it.
I won't shut up.

But I think you should.
 
#11
I won't shut up.

But I think you should.
You're upset because your sacred cow of meditation, etc is now gored. Deal with it. But don't go making statements and judgments about matters of which you have only a mind controlled propagandized understanding.

The people that use psychedelics in a responsible manner are not the degenerates selling cocaine and heroin.
 
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#13
I think its a little scattered too... There are a lot of topics here. They're different and they intersect. Get's a little muddied when you're not careful. We can talk about the effects, the experience, the phenomenology of these drugs, or the history, or the current sociology.... i mostly want to make the point that these substances are obviously the most powerful mind changing drugs and they can and have been used for everything. From experiencing mystical realities, for healing, and for driving one mad. This current renaissance is, like the last wave of publicizing psychedelics, a op of sort of secret societies to distract and disorient large swaths of people. We're seeing an advance of a Brave New World agenda.... There is no question in my mind the drugs have profound benefits and profoundly negative consequences. It all depends on who is administering them, and why. Like sex. Thanks for listening and commenting. It needs a lot of editing. Glad to discuss....
 
#14
Hi Robert,

Thanks for joining the discussion!

We're seeing an advance of a Brave New World agenda....
What do you think that agenda is? Are you even suggesting that these drugs are being secretly given to certain people - politicians perhaps?
It needs a lot of editing
If you mean the actual podcast - I agree completely!
From experiencing mystical realities, for healing, and for driving one mad.
It would be nice if you expanded a bit on your own experiences with psychedelics, and on how these drugs can be used constructively.

David
 
#15
I think its a little scattered too... There are a lot of topics here. They're different and they intersect. Get's a little muddied when you're not careful. We can talk about the effects, the experience, the phenomenology of these drugs, or the history, or the current sociology.... i mostly want to make the point that these substances are obviously the most powerful mind changing drugs and they can and have been used for everything. From experiencing mystical realities, for healing, and for driving one mad. This current renaissance is, like the last wave of publicizing psychedelics, a op of sort of secret societies to distract and disorient large swaths of people. We're seeing an advance of a Brave New World agenda.... There is no question in my mind the drugs have profound benefits and profoundly negative consequences. It all depends on who is administering them, and why. Like sex. Thanks for listening and commenting. It needs a lot of editing. Glad to discuss....
Mr Forte,
I am also glad you have joined the convo. I apologize to some extent for some of my harsh words. They don't necessarily apply to you. Rather, I am speaking to a conglomerate of people I have known and know. Hippies are perfectly fine if they want to live their lives as they do. It is their opinions as to how the world of men works (or should work) that I think are worthless.

I am genuinely interested in understanding how you think a responsible govt should respond to the myriad of serious issues that face a society that seeks to maintain its prosperity and harmony given human nature, extended consciousness realities and enemies that seek to overthrow the structure. My experience tells me that people need structure. Maybe some of us like to believe we do not, but those that truly do not are an extremely rare bird. And I am convinced that a prosperous society, such as the one we enjoy, requires structure, belief and commitment.

My experience with psychedelics and other mystical practices is extensive, but I am a realist re; national defense and human nature. I am fully convinced that the expanded consciousness realm is real, that we survive death in some form, OBEs are real, psi is real, etc. This is from personal experience and related evidence.

It amuses me that the people who promote some conspiracy theories and demonize the govt are also the ones that call for more govt in our lives. Govt is just people with all the foibles that all afflict all people. The CIA et al are neither good nor bad, black/white. Just flawed humans that often do good and sometimes do bad; sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidently. I do not see that agency's (or any other's) interest in these matters as indicative of evil intent on its face. If you do, I am genuinely interested understanding why.

IMO, TV/Hollywood, social media, the education system and psychotropic pharmaceuticals (30%+ of the population, including children, are prescribed them) are the way The Dark side (if we may call it that) is mind controlling The People. I do not believe that psychedelics are a part of the dark side's methodological bag of tricks - nor do I believe that psychedelics are an effective tool for controlling; often quite the opposite. That experiment ran its course and was dropped in favor of mass media/propaganda and, now, social media addiction and influence ops. The legacy of MK Ultra and related programs is info ops, not psychedelics. I can state that with a high degree of confidence. Of course, the caveat that no one knows everything that is being done applies as always. Yet, I think observing what is happening should support my statement.
 
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#16
It amuses me that the people who promote some conspiracy theories and demonize the govt are also the ones that call for more govt in our lives. Govt is just people with all the foibles that all afflict all people. The CIA et al are neither good nor bad, black/white. Just flawed humans that often do good and sometimes do bad; sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidently. I do not see that agency's (or any other's) interest in these matters as indicative of evil intent on its face. If you do, I am genuinely interested understanding why.
Is that necessarily so? I mean if there are indeed, dark forces of some sort that actually want chaos and war, might they not infiltrate organisations like thr CIA to achieve those aims? I certainly feel there is a force right now in that direction.

Certainly it is amazing to me just how much damage the US has done in the world - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (helping to install Saddam Husein and then fighting him twice) turning Libya into a failed state, trying (until Donald Trump came along) to turn Syria into another failed state, removing a democratic leader in Iran, and installing the Shah which intensified hatred of the US in Iran, then after he was overthrown, fuelling a war between Iraq and Iran................... etc. And yet, I have visited the US many times, and I know that Americans are open and friendly - they can't understand why they are hated in so many parts of the world.

None of those ventures turned out well, and yet there are forces that would like the US to continue down the same path. It is hard to believe that these are all mistakes.

However, let's try not to let the entire discussion with Robert turn into politics.

David
 
#17
Is that necessarily so? I mean if there are indeed, dark forces of some sort that actually want chaos and war, might they not infiltrate organisations like thr CIA to achieve those aims? I certainly feel there is a force right now in that direction.

Certainly it is amazing to me just how much damage the US has done in the world - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq (helping to install Saddam Husein and then fighting him twice) turning Libya into a failed state, trying (until Donald Trump came along) to turn Syria into another failed state, removing a democratic leader in Iran, and installing the Shah which intensified hatred of the US in Iran, then after he was overthrown, fuelling a war between Iraq and Iran................... etc. And yet, I have visited the US many times, and I know that Americans are open and friendly - they can't understand why they are hated in so many parts of the world.

None of those ventures turned out well, and yet there are forces that would like the US to continue down the same path. It is hard to believe that these are all mistakes.

However, let's try not to let the entire discussion with Robert turn into politics.

David
David,
I could present a list of all of the major airline crashes/disasters and make a moving - nay shocking - case that the airlines are totally irresponsible and that flying is utterly unsafe. You might forget that airplanes fly every hour of every day without incident; especially if you were prejudiced against the airlines.

I dispute that the VN war was conducted for evil reasons. Stopping the spread of communism is a good idea. That's what the USG believed it was doing when it started out on that adventure. The monkey business in Syria and Libya was terrible and people should be punished. Thankfully at least McCain is dead and unable to create anymore trouble and Hillary lost. There are others though. Saddam was a bad man in a bad region. Some ideologues had a stupid fantasy idea of what would happen if he were to be "taken out". They broke international law and lied to the American to get their failure off the ground. The people that are being exposed as having attempted a coup d'etat in DC after the 2016 election must be dealt with severely along with their media allies. There are bad guys/stupid guys in every sector of human endeavor, including the Church and guru-land. Rust never sleeps.

Korea? The US saved the South from being under the control of the Kims. Are you freakin' serious? You want to live in NoKo? SoKo is a prosperous society because of US intervention. People like you piss on the sacrifice of all the Americans that gave their lives for that cause.

Most of the people I know that bitch about the CIA, etc are also clamoring for govt healthcare, free college, gun control, etc - lots of stuff that means more govt in all aspects of their lives. Same people readily put all their personal stuff on Facebook. Self-reporting to the powers that be their intimate thoughts...and reporting on their friends by association. All of that gets analyzed, aggregated and packaged, you know, by "hip", "cool", "progressive" "environmentally conscious" people, who then sell it to people like me. This CIA fetish is stupid in light of what is really happening. As I said, most people are cattle. They want to be controlled and led around by the nose as long they are entertained, have a full belly and maybe some sex and low angst levels.

The US military and associated agencies have done more to promote freedom and prosperity in the world than all of the hippies chanting "OM" could even imagine. Only an ignorant over-protected fool could see it otherwise. There really are some bad forces out there in a very real physical way. A lot of puny countries enjoy protection from America (like Canada, the Brits, Aussies, Kiwis, most of Europe, etc). Without the USA, you'd be run over by a Tojo, Hitler or Stalin in no time - or maybe you'd kill yourselves off over nothing as you did in WW1. You like to forget about that beauty don't you?

Agree - enough of that. I only brought it up because the header did include "CIA" and there was some reference to it in the discussion.
 
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#18
I dispute that the VN war was conducted for evil reasons. Stopping the spread of communism is a good idea. That's what the USG believed it was doing when it started out on that adventure. The monkey business in Syria and Libya was terrible and people should be punished. Thankfully at least McCain is dead and unable to create anymore trouble and Hillary lost. There are others though. Saddam was a bad man in a bad region. Some ideologues had a stupid fantasy idea of what would happen if he were to be "taken out". They broke international law and lied to the American to get their failure off the ground. The people that are being exposed as having attempted a coup d'etat in DC after the 2016 election must be dealt with severely along with their media allies. There are bad guys/stupid guys in every sector of human endeavor, including the Church and guru-land. Rust never sleeps.

Korea? The US saved the South from being under the control of the Kims. Are you freakin' serious? You want to live in NoKo? SoKo is a prosperous society because of US intervention. People like you piss on the sacrifice of all the Americans that gave their lives for that cause.
Well we seem to agree about more than we disagree about - yes those responsible for trying to bring down Trump should spend a very long time in the roughest of rough jails!

About Korea - compare it to Vietnam where the US lost. Vietnam seems to have become essentially a state like any other - not any kind of threat. I suspect that if Korea had won the same sort of complete victory, it too would have mellowed in a similar way. Remember that it is now admitted that the Vietnam war was also started by a trick when a US warship sailed inside the territorial waters in the Gulf of Tonkin to provoke the start of the conflict.

I hope that President Trump can make some kind of deal with President Putin to reduce the tension, now that the Russia collusion nonsense is over.

David
 
#19
Well we seem to agree about more than we disagree about - yes those responsible for trying to bring down Trump should spend a very long time in the roughest of rough jails!

About Korea - compare it to Vietnam where the US lost. Vietnam seems to have become essentially a state like any other - not any kind of threat. I suspect that if Korea had won the same sort of complete victory, it too would have mellowed in a similar way. Remember that it is now admitted that the Vietnam war was also started by a trick when a US warship sailed inside the territorial waters in the Gulf of Tonkin to provoke the start of the conflict.

I hope that President Trump can make some kind of deal with President Putin to reduce the tension, now that the Russia collusion nonsense is over.

David
David,
re VN - hindsight is always 20/20. The war didn't start over a stupid torpedo boat incident. That is a simpleton's version of pseudo-history. It was a done deal due to anti-communist ideology (which I agree with). Korea is a different matter. I do not think that one can honestly say that the NoKos are enjoying anything like the freedom and prosperity that the SoKos are. And, no, I don't believe that NoKo would be a nice place but for US sanctions. That is mere anti-American childish fantasy. I believe that Trump will work with KJU to bring about a peaceful solution in NoKo. It would be better for NoKo to become civilized gradually than to have a war break out. Millions would die in that war.

But I want to talk about psychedelics. I have stated my position on the military and the CIA. I'm sure many here will disagree with me; perhaps some will even hate me for it. I will not respond further and would only ask them to ask themselves how they "know" what they think they know. Who told them? How does that person know? What are that source's biases? What does history tell us about human nature and society, war and peace? Has there ever been a time when barbarians are not at the gates? Is someone who defers responsibility to others to maintain peace and security in a position to be smug and self-righteous about the actions of those they have deferred to? There are a lot of stars on that wall at CIA HQ; representing people who anonymously died defending their country. There are, of course military cemeteries all over the world that are the final resting place of young men who gave up their lives in their prime to free others from tyranny. Collate all of that and think about it deeply.

IMO, psychedelics represent the best method possible of studying consciousness and human related potentials. Because they work and work profoundly and consistently.

I do not think that psychedelics should be widely disseminated to anyone who wants to use them in any situation, but I do not think they should be totally restricted either. Not sure what the right distribution is.

Also, I have been thinking about a way to describe the effect of psychedelics to people who have never used them. I think that Mr. Forte would be critical of that attempt by stating that the effect will be different based on set and setting among other variables - and he'd be right. But I could describe what they are for me and people I know who use them more or less as I have. I may make an attempt here when I have the time to concentrate on that write up.
 
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#20
David,
re VN - hindsight is always 20/20. The war didn't start over a stupid torpedo boat incident. That is a simpleton's version of pseudo-history. It was a done deal due to anti-communist ideology (which I agree with). Korea is a different matter. I do not think that one can honestly say that the NoKos are enjoying anything like the freedom and prosperity that the SoKos are. And, no, I don't believe that NoKo would be a nice place but for US sanctions. That is mere anti-American childish fantasy. I believe that Trump will work with KJU to bring about a peaceful solution in NoKo. It would be better for NoKo to become civilized gradually than to have a war break out. Millions would die in that war.
I was not suggesting for a second that NoKo would be a nice place without US sanctions, but that Korea would have almost certainly been better as a whole if the US had not attempted to intervene originally. I hope that President Trump will do exactly what you say.
But I want to talk about psychedelics. I have stated my position on the military and the CIA. I'm sure many here will disagree with me; perhaps some will even hate me for it.
On the whole, on this forum we try to debate such things, not hate people for disagreeing.
I will not respond further and would only ask them to ask themselves how they "know" what they think they know. Who told them? How does that person know? What are that source's biases?
I wonder that about a lot of conspiratorial theory. However, it is clear that a fairly extensive conspiracy tried to topple President Trump, so conspiracies really do happen.
What does history tell us about human nature and society, war and peace? Has there ever been a time when barbarians are not at the gates?
Is someone who defers responsibility to others to maintain peace and security in a position to be smug and self-righteous about the actions of those they have deferred to? There are a lot of stars on that wall at CIA HQ; representing people who anonymously died defending their country. There are, of course military cemeteries all over the world that are the final resting place of young men who gave up their lives in their prime to free others from tyranny. Collate all of that and think about it deeply.
The problem right now is that some people see it as patriotic to stir up trouble with Russia. Russia has a number of countries on its borders that contain many Russian citizens together with others that hate Russia. This is an explosive mix, and it is ludicous for the US and the West to stir up these hatreds - potentially starting a big war.
IMO, psychedelics represent the best method possible of studying consciousness and human related potentials. Because they work and work profoundly and consistently.

I do not think that psychedelics should be widely disseminated to anyone who wants to use them in any situation, but I do not think they should be totally restricted either. Not sure what the right distribution is.
Agreed this is difficult. I have never tried anything stronger than cannabis, though that can give you a taste of psychedlic experience if you eat it rather than smoke it (I have never smoked anything, so smoking isn't really an option). I guess I would try some other things if they had been prepared in a pure way with a well defined dose.
Also, I have been thinking about a way to describe the effect of psychedelics to people who have never used them. I think that Mr. Forte would be critical of that attempt by stating that the effect will be different based on set and setting among other variables - and he'd be right. But I could describe what they are for me and people I know who use them more or less as I have. I may make an attempt here when I have the time to concentrate on that write up.
I think that would be valuable. These drugs are obviously part of the bigger picture of consciousness.

David
 
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