Science and philosophy gave him something he never thought he’d find… respect for religion |312|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Apr 26, 2016.

  1. Stephen Wright

    Stephen Wright New

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    Arouet, thanks for the references to Cochrane and METRICS. They are doing science-healing.

     
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  2. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    Are you sure about that? When you look at the papers that Sheldrake cites in that article you see some different themes. The first article notes that many researchers in pharmaceutical companies are well aware of the the need to check that the initial studies hold up. The article describes the in-house attempts of the companies to conduct their own replications. The frustration that they express is that dissappontingly few are successfully replicated. They do they precisely to avoid wasting too much money on an unproductive line or research. The article notes that this is pretty well known.

    The second link describes research where the investigators did not bother to validate the initial studies. The frustration of these teams was much worse: because they ended up wasting a lot of time and money. The article suggests not doing that! (among other advice).

    Note in that second article the authors say that this shouldn't be interpreted as the system being fundmantally broken (I'm paraphrasing). They note there is a lot of really good research out there. The rest of the article is geared, similarly to the iaonidis paper, to providing advice on best practices. Note: the authors took pains to consult some of the original authors and noted they were perfectly competent and serious researchers.

    Another good example of the kinds of things I've long been posting about. When you read the paper that this skate article is referring to you see that it's not really describing an entire field based on a false premise that no one tried to replicate. Rather, that entire field was basically replications in one form or another! The problem, however, is that what you had were a lot of variations on a theme but dominated by small scale, underpowered studies. So even when meta analysis was done it, being based on small, underpowered studies (along with some other issues involving topics we've often discussed such as selection biases, etc.) you had meta results that likely showed effects that weren't there. (Note, this is in line with a study I posted awhile back that confirmed that one or two fully powered studies are more reliable than entire meta analyses filled with underpowered studies.

    When these guys did their big, fully powered, study, the effect all but disappeared. Note, the authors suggest potential issues with their paper as well, and suggest that they may be off as well but that the issue is worth pursuing.

    The authors aren't chagrined about the system as a whole either and provide advice.

    What you are seeing, I suggest, is not evidence of fundmental flaws but the emergence of a better understanding of how to produce reliable results.

    These findings are important and should play a big role in the future allocation of funds and publishing decisions. But I'm not sure we can blame those who came before, or blast them as boobs. It takes time to figure this stuff out. These results are not always intuitive. The research had to be done first and meta research was not always easy. It's the advent of the Internet id guess that had really allowed the field to burst in the last decade or so. The capacity for this scale of study would have been extremely difficult earlier.

    Note that there are a lot of parallels we can see in the study of the history of these ego experiments to the history of parapsychology. Its worthwhile reading closely for many on this forum, and I think it suggests certain questions to ask in this field as well.

    Gotta say, it's nice that others are starting to draw attention to these studies on this forum. I've been trying to generate discussion on them for years! So thank you!


    You can find all sorts of similar cases I'm sure. Remember, we both agree there are flaws and abuses. But we shouldn't evaluate a system as a whole based solely on its failures. There are many other factors. And there is no system that will be failure free. Evaluating the system requires a much broader view.

    If you read those papers I think you'll see some pretty good suggestions for ways to move forward.

    The rest of your post seems to be more of the us vs them skeptic proponent stuff - which tend to be discussion killers this had been a great discussion so far and it would be a shame to kill it so I'm not going to address them.[/QUOTE]
     
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  3. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    I've been re-familiarizing myself with this material and it appears my memory was a bit off. From what I can determine, it is misleading to suggest that Wiseman altered Sheldrake's protocols - if anything it was the opposite. But really they were working simultaneously.

    While Sheldrake had started working with Jaytee before Wiseman, he didn't publish his protocol or calculations until after Wiseman. At the same time, Sheldrake reanalyzed Wiseman's data to follow his protocol. Wiseman appears to have been in regular consulation with Pam Smart throughout his experiment, and who appears to have impacting directly on his protocol (or at least, Wiseman appears to have developed his protocols based on discussions with PS. While Wiseman states in his paper that he consulted both RS and PS, the substantive comments involve the discussions with PS only. Sheldrake wrote in one of his papers that he was not consulted by Wiseman - seems that if there was consultation with RS it was probably not extensive.

    That said, as it is presented, Wiseman got involved spurred by an appeal by Sheldrake that people should
    go out and test animals in his Seven Experiments that could change the world book. I understand that Sheldrake described a possible protocol in that book, but I don't have it so I can't say if that might accurately be described as a protocol that Wiseman altered. But I'm not sure if that counts.

    In any event, as with so much of these discussions, the situation is more nuanced that some suggest.

    David, if you think I've misrepresented anything, or have additional information, please let me know. I can post my sources later if anyone is interested.
     
  4. Nicole

    Nicole New

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    Thank you for speaking up on this. I could not agree with you more.
     
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  5. Looking at the first paper:

    Believe it or not: how much can we rely on published data on potential drug targets?

    This seems to indicate what I noted - that it's hard to gauge the extent of the failures in science-as-practiced without actually going back and re-checking results?

    There's a 2012 that discusses this issue with respect to cancer treatments:

    The public doesn't even get to know which studies failed due to an NDA:

    Now the problem may or may not be extensive, though the article notes this issue isn't related to just cancer research:

    It seems to me this is a cause for concern, and requires a massive review?

    To me it seems there's a difference between the system - by which I take to mean the methodology - is fundamentally broken and whether there are a lot of biased/false results out there that were allowed to go through.

    Looking at the second link:

    Drug development: Raise standards for preclinical cancer research


    This at the least indicates a problem, though I'll say again I don't know how one determines how bad a problem is without a massive public review.

    I'd suggest a website where the public can see percentage of replication failures in each field as well as free referencing of the papers.

    The Slate Article:

    Everything is Crumbling


    This seems to support my idea of a massive re-examination?

    Do you mean fundamental flaws in the research design and methodology or flaws in science-as-practiced? Again, how does one know this without a massive review of studies in tandem with replication attempts?

    You're welcome. But I'd reiterate that without mathematical training there's little discussion to be had beyond general trends at best.

    I've never really understood the idea that a layperson forum is going to advance much understanding which is why I suspect most people who want to understand the data from parapsychology do so in private but come here to discuss implications. After all one would have to begin by reading a statistics book or two cover-to-cover.

    The question is how do we evaluate a system without knowing the extent to which it has failed.

    Actually without examining bias in researches and academia how does one hope to achieve a genuine science?

    Without acknowledging the failures of the self-appointed guardians of skepticism how does one hope to make progress?

    Even taking out consideration of parapsychology there's a possibility that bias among scientists prevents progress:

    Does Science Advance One Funeral at a Time?

    There's a lot more I could post about corruption and materialist bias, but if you're not interested that's fine.
     
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  6. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    You could just use a threshold triggered criteria... so that if Jaytee's time at the window (without obvious cause), exceeded a 1/3 of any rolling 10 minute period, you could say with some certainly that Pam had either... already set off, or, predict she would set off with 10 minutes.

    That criteria sort of appeals to me in this case, as it's possibly the sort of behavioral response that might be observed due to a stochastic resonance like mechanism.
     
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  7. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    That's the idea that Wiseman was getting at as well with his protocol: trying to determine if Jaytee's going to the window was a predictor of PS coming home. That's the observation the family made that prompted the research in the first place. I don't doubt that Wiseman's protocols could be improved upon as well - but it is certainly inaccurate to call them arbitrary - as Sheldrake did.

    I get why. Wiseman's conclusions in his paper were circumscribed and expressed reasonable caution and recommendations. It was the public overstatements about debunking that was the problem. They clearly pissed Sheldrake off and no doubt destroyed any prospect of further productive collaboration. Who knows what they could have accomplished had they continued to work together.
     
  8. malf

    malf Member

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    Are you talking about public overstatements of debunking by Wiseman or others?
     
  9. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    I can't remember the specifics, but I do recall that when I looked into this issue awhile back I saw at least one comment by wiseman that I thought was overstating things. Sheldrake mentions a specific reference in his paper at some conference but I'm not sure the exact quote.

    I think its fair to say that people close to Wiseman have made quite strong comments that way overstated the conclusions and I haven't seen anywhere that Wiseman says "hold on, my protocols might lead to that conclusion with more study, but not based on the small sample in my experiment". Even if the strongest statements were by others I don't think Wiseman can escape blame on this. (it's not like arms reach media reports, these are Wiseman's close colleagues in the skeptical movement).

    The upshot is, the attention moves from the reasoned comments in the paper to the more inflamatory off the cuff comments and productive discourse slams shut.
     
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  10. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    None of that bothers me, I'm only interested in the results of the experiments with Jaytee - and these do appear to be significant.

    It's Wiseman's replication in every trial that nails it for me.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
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  11. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    I'm curious as to the criteria you are using. You seem to be saying that since the patterns roughly match that this seals the deal on Sheldrake's hypothesis. But Wiseman's point seems to be that perhaps it does not. Here is the summary I posted on the old forum:

    Wiseman's results may roughly match results in Sheldrake's trials but can we really point to these 4 trials as supportive of Sheldrake's hypothesis? If you don't consider Wiseman's methodology to be valid (which I accept is entirely possible), perhaps you could elaborate?
     
  12. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I don't know what '...seals the deal...' means, but the results of these experiments with Jaytee do appear to be significant.

    Both Sheldrake and Wiseman's experiments met the threshold triggered criteria I suggested earlier... so that if Jaytee's time at the window (without obvious cause), exceeded a 1/3 of any rolling 10 minute period, you could say with some certainly that Pam had either... already set off, or, predict she would set off with 10 minutes.

    Wiseman replicated Sheldrakes results as far as my criteria is concerned.
     
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  13. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    How do you interpret Wiseman's data to show jaytee at the window for more than 3.33 minutes without an obvious cause with PS coming home within 10 minutes? In almost all cases PS's coming home also coincides with there being obvious other causes at the window (at least looking at the summary I posted above.)
     
  14. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    I've said that the results of these experiments with Jaytee do appear to be significant.
     
  15. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    And I'm asking, in light of the data that Wiseman produced (and that I've summarized) how you reach that conclusion based on the criteria you suggested.
     
  16. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    From the data. How else would I reach it.
     
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  17. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    And I'm trying to understand how you did so. When I look at the data (as I explained above in detail) I don't see the same pattern you apparently see and I cannot figure out how you got there. I was hoping you could elaborate, explain your calculations, maybe even post your full analysis if you have it handy.
     
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  18. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    http://www.sheldrake.org/files/pdfs/papers/SPR_Vol63.pdf (Fig 1.) which meets the threshold triggered criteria I suggested earlier.
     
  19. Arouet

    Arouet Member

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    I thought you must have been talking about an analysis you had done yourself, because that analysis does not, as far as I can tell, show what you describe. Sheldrakes graphs, as far as I know, do not only plot those time where there was no other apparent reason for Jaytee to have gone to the window. As I demonstrated above, at least in Wiseman's four trials, there were all sorts of other apparent reasons for Jaytee to have gone to the window, So it doesn't meet your criteria. Though if you see it differently maybe you could explain?
     
  20. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    They all meet my threshold triggered criteria in that analysis by exceeding 1/3 of the rolling 10 min period at the window.
     

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