Sean Carroll

Discussion in 'Consciousness & Science' started by Number 22, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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  2. nbtruthman

    nbtruthman New

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  3. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    All he does is show a lack of understanding of the evidence, combined with the arrogance of today's limited knowledge.
    The article also shows that this guy confuses dualism with survivalism.
    He also ignores evidence that consciousness is immaterial and that it does not require a material interaction to be tested.
    Quantum field theory does not say anything, he simply rejected a straw man who was rejected in the 19th century.
     
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  4. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    The only possibility that consciousness can detach from atoms, subatomic particles, super strings which are underlying biological systems including neurons, cells, etc, is that:

    if there is another unseen structures for which, the known neurons and cells substance systems are only a mirror projection phenomenon.

    Scientists, physicists and cosmologists proudly insist on that human mind can't survive bodily death, because they proudly found the indivisible relationships between how human feel, think and the movement, changes of the underlying biological systems.

    There are at least two models to explain these hard wired relationships:

    1, the underlying movement of particles are like the puppeteers, and consciousness is like marionette, when puppeteers die, marionette can't continue its movement.

    2, the underlying movement of particles are like the shadows projected, or the images mirrored by, some unseen "true sources" of consciousness, these "true sources" are puppeteers, manipulating the marionettes. The physical substances which seem to synchronize with the lively changes of the consciousness, simply because physical substances are shadows projected or images mirrored by those "true sources". In this possibility paradigm, when the projected shadows or the mirrored images disappear, no one knows what happened to the "true sources", therefore, if "true sources" abandon the shadows and images, no longer synchronize with them, no one knows whether the "true sources" still exist and keep manipulating the marionette, which is the consciousness.

    For now, all we know, all the data we collected, endorse the first paradigm. There shouldn't be an "expectation" of life after death, but the proud of scientific discovery neither can say the opposite for certainty.

    My English is bad, I can't convey my meaning clearly. OK, give it up. No one were to understand what I say. Take it easy, not very important thought.
     
  5. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    It may be deep in reality that consciousness is of the same nature as matter but not matter, connected to matter by means of causality and transmitted like quantum entanglement, but not limited by consciousness. non-material. Therefore, we are not able to measure because there is no interaction here that only communicates with information.
     
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  6. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Do you mean, all the interactions we now can measure are through some matters in one way or another, the totally sheer communications in the sheer information form are out of reach of current science? :D
     
  7. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    The article Number 22 linked to, seemed to refer consciousness to as something still must-be a matter.

    I agree with Number 22 on the opposing to this opinion. Consciousness probably is not a matter to be detected. Or at least scientists shouldn't limit their targets to this "all things talkable are material in one way or another" style.
     
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  8. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    The fact that we are using material tools, and as material tools we will never discover to the very essence of itself.
     
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  9. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Please, would there be someone telling me that, what's wrong with my English writing T_T?

    I tried as hard as I can to make my writing conform with English language grammar, but it seems my writing keeps being weird.

    Is there any part that I wrote incomprehensible? Or just too awful so that no one ever had patience to read them? T_T

    How could I improve my English.

    For some of writing of yours (I mean people in this nice forum), I can understand a contour of the meaning your sentences wish to convey, but I'm afraid my understanding is not satisfactorily precise for the most of the times.
     
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  10. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Actually I'm using google translate right now ~T_T~
     
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  11. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Are you translating another language into English? :D

    I love languages especially super exotic ones! But my intelligence and reminiscence ability doesn't allow me to learn a second foreign language. I planed to learn Japanese, Korean, Russian, German starting from many years ago, all failed. :D

    I learned achtung as the only German word I know. :D L'arc-en-ciel is from French. :) Russian is impossible for me to pronounce correctly.
     
  12. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Yes, I am translating vietnam into English. Quite sad that I am only good at Thai instead of English, although Vietnamese is quite English
     
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  13. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    Ah ha, I'm sorry I forgot you when this thread just started. It seems one forum member told me you are from Vietnam. And I joined several threads of yours before. :D
    Our time zone might be near, perhaps now it is sunrise where you are. Good day! :)
     
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  14. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    It's 3:50 Am :-D
    Good day
     
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  15. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Hey Tarantulanebula what do you think about this comment from a Skeptic from
    https://thesearchforlifeafterdeath....-million-dollar-challenge-finally-terminated/
    I just don't understand why these people think they know the logic.
    Skeptics:
    I see dumb people on April 10, 2016 at 9:19 pm
    Reading the posts of the psychic proponents really makes me cringe…. Despite the few sane people here (=sceptics) explaining to you where exactly you are wrong, you simply can’t see it. You don’t get how logic arguments work. I am astounded. I always believed that if you explain things step by step even the dumbest person would get it. God, was I wrong!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  16. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    I still do not know much about the challenge of james randi, is there any article about the challenge of trial?
     
  17. tarantulanebula

    tarantulanebula New

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    I strongly believe the same thing on this!!!!

    But, sometimes, in order to explain a too complex thing to a too dumb person, and also if the explainer is not ideally smart enough, it would require infinite time to achieve a clear conveying and communicating, to let the dumb person truly get the thing.

    So, although I believe it is correct to say that everything is explainable from any person to any person, I also believe it is a statement set under an ideal condition without a mean limitation on some conditions - like time elapse. Actually it is sometimes unrealistic for this idea to take an effect.

    Hello Number 22, I'm sorry that I can't conclude from your writing, on which side you are standing.

    I found from your writing, including those in other threads of yours, that, you are kind and courteous and worried about something.

    I wish to talk to you as kind as you talk to me, as courteous as you talk, but I'm sorry I can't soothe you from your worrying. I am a deep pessimist and a strong disbeliever to everything. I may share the similar worrying as you do, and I tell you that all I can find is disappointing or even sorrow impact rather than soothing.

    My characteristics are probably related to my personal experiences. Many of my personal experiences started from my earliest childhood have taught me heavily and painfully that I had better expect a bad result rather than a good one, otherwise I would always be shocked and bestowed unbearable loss.

    I don't know what's the social atmosphere in Vietnam. In China, there are too many charlatans, frauds, so every survivable person must be a deceit defender. China is a country where you are receiving the training of debunking and defending various swindles and deceits and conspiracies, from the lowest to the superior ones.

    If I be asked what faith I have, I would answer, I don't believe any religion, I don't believe Buddhism, Christian, I don't believe any superstition or paranormal claims, and I don't believe Capitalism, neither do I believe Communism. I believe one dogma:
    "Don't believe anything, especially the one which sounds easy, sweet."
    This is my faith. When they present me with astronomically large amount of non-repeated information, I will choose to partially and shallowly believe what they say, on the opposite, if there is no or scarce information, then fraud.

    Besides intentional deluding, there are also many many people like deceiving themselves shamelessly, without a respect to the truth.
    People like to believe what they wish to believe, good for their taste, easy for them to understand, nice for them to accept, and what sounds amiable and pleased to them. This is somehow selfish. Believing a nice claim doesn't take any good effect to the reality or to the others, only bestows an illusion in oneself and emits a lie to the others.

    As I never see or hear any evidence, not even indirect one, I stand on the side of skeptics. For the discussion between skeptics and believers I feel quite meaningless. After all neither can show any noticeable amount of information. All they do is speaking in a total pitch black void scene.

    I may have different opinions with yours, dear Number 22, but I share the similar worrying as you do. No matter how you feel about this saying by someone in that link "reading the posts of the psychic proponents really makes me cringe", I feel reading the posts of the psychic proponents really makes me cringe too, because there is a reckless and shameless belief to a little to completely void amount of information, a belief to the nothingness is terrible.
     
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  18. nbtruthman

    nbtruthman New

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    Your English is better than you think. Your concept #2 seems fairly clearly to be a version of interactive dualism, with the "true source" or "unseen structures" being something like the Spiritualist's "subtle body". I disagree that all the data collected (i.e. empirical evidence) endorse your concept #1. There is an immense amount of empirical evidence for the phenomena of parapsychology, including childrens' past life memories, veridical mediumistic communications, and veridical NDEs. All this data is incompatible with the materialist neuroscientific view that human consciousness is purely the data processing of, or is one and the same as, the physical brain's neurons and synapses.
     
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  19. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    Thank you
    I'm not sure where I stand
    ah i think i am also bad english, i can not clearly describe anything.
    I was confused by the skeptics' words.
    Although I do not yin into the psychology like you but I just feel difficult.

    Vietnamese society is not different from what you described above
    I used to be a Communist, I grew up with the deviation and lies of society. From an early age I was engulfed by the metaphysical questions of materialism and discrimination against religions. But one day I woke up, hearing a joke about the death of the atheists, that moment my faith collapsed.
    I was engulfed by the fear, haunting those things that blinded me, and I searched and believed the silly things I saw to comfort myself was no extinction here. And my belief boom collapsed a second time when I joined the movement of skeptics and then the knowledge gained from a psychological conference broke my belief. Again. My beliefs have become torn, and any statement that is unreasonable from the opposing side also makes me confused and panicked. I really do not know where I stand, everything under me seems to collapse.
    I can say now that I am very confused ~ T_T ~
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  20. Number 22

    Number 22 Member

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    wonder what our purpose is? A meaningless robot, or a divine soul. We have not lived long enough to understand everything, with the current scientific development that drags on the limits of materialism that have stumbled. People like Carroll, Cox, James Randi, Radin, Stapp, shedrake, Kaku emerged as a sign of the death of old beliefs.
    A world of chaos, meaningless but meaningful. Will we simply disappear or continue to exist? Whether the tears when our loved ones fall down mean or simply an act of evolution.
    Is there a god who embraces us with love and creates a cruel reality for us to develop, or is it simply an illusion?
     
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