She Brings Wicca to Psychotherapy With Tangible Results |329|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Oct 11, 2016.

  1. Judith

    Judith New

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    disagree... without the hardballing I never would have gotten to the "Jesus didn't exist so these people can't possibly be seeing him" silliness.[/QUOTE]
    I see your point.
     
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  2. Judith

    Judith New

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    I had no acquaintance with or knowledge of the angel Michael at the time. Since then, of course, I have. Strangely, many years later, I confided my experience to a friend, who surprisingly (to me) said she had the exact same experience, with the name Michael told to her as well. She isn't a religious person either.
     
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  3. E.Flowers

    E.Flowers New

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    None? Now that is interesting. I do not have religious upbringing, but the concept of archangels and their names was there, mostly acquired trough the media.

    Perhaps some of the more informed users could elaborate on the symbolism of this figure, and why it could be relevant to such experiences.
     
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  4. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    Raised a protestant and living as an atheist for a couple of decades I never heard of Archangel Micheal until the last couple of years in conjunction with the "new age." (I'm 50.) I know that Gordon "Rune Soup" White talks about an entity called Saint Cyprian as taking a very active role in today's world. We can also consider that the entity behind Ayahuasca may be consciously picking up a head of steam and pushing her influence much farther north.

    If one believes in such things, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that certain entities may choose to play more active roles during different times in history.
     
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  5. Ben Heaton

    Ben Heaton Member

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    I am late to the conversation, wanted to make a couple of points.

    I thought that the discussion about duality versus nonduality was interesting. I don’t see that the two are mutually exclusive. We live in a world of duality. I think that having an understanding of duality (which most people naturally do) is necessary in order to get anything done in life. It is my feeling that there exists an underlying nonduality, but we still have to deal with the dual aspects of life until we move on to a further realm (assuming that happens).

    Regarding Christ Consciousness, I think that it is the experience that some people do have, of course not everyone. It is interesting to me that Christ Consciousness is dependent on the Four Gospels, and to a lesser extent the rest of the NT. (No NT, no CC, at least by that name.) I think that’s true whether there was a living Jesus Christ on earth or not. Wherever the NT came from, it seems to contain mythic archetypes that have had a profound impact on at least one corner of consciousness. Ditto for other writings such the Bhagavad Gita. That said, Christ Consciousness, Buddha Consciousness, etc may turn out to be the same thing with different names, even if experienced in different ways.
     
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  6. Alex

    Alex New

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    hey Ben... I don't see that dependency quite the same way. for example, NDErs sometimes report seeing loved one in forms (age, clothes) "tuned" for the experiencer... same could be going on here.
     
  7. Ben Heaton

    Ben Heaton Member

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    The name "Jesus Christ" and his story originates in the New Testament. As far as I know there are no other original sources, so if there were no NT, then there would be no story of Jesus Christ and hence there could be no "Christ" consciousness. I agree that NDE experiences are tuned for the experiencer, and it seems to me that it is the NT that "tunes" people to have an experience with Christ consciousness. If not the NT, then where would Christ consciousness come from?
     
  8. Far.From.Here

    Far.From.Here New

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    Isn't Christ mentioned in some of the books from the Nag Hammadi Library? These books aren't in the New Testament.

    http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
     
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  9. malf

    malf Member

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    There are fleeting (contested) references from Josephus and Tacitus, but nothing like a Christ narrative. The story that makes the man (myth?) is contained in the NT.
     
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  10. Ben Heaton

    Ben Heaton Member

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    The Nag Hammadi Library dates to the 2nd to 4th century AD (per Wikipedia). The Books of Mark dates to about 70 AD, Matthew and Luke to 80 or 90 AD, John later. The Nag Hammadi has some quotes attributed to Jesus that are not found in the NT, but I would think of it as essentially a Gnostic commentary on the gospels. Certainly much more was written about Jesus Christ after the 1st century, but it all seems to be dependent on the NT sources.

    I would think that the majority of people (if not all) who have a Christ Consciousness experience are Christians, and their knowledge of Christ would be based on the New Testament.
     
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  11. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    Oh I don't think that's necessarily fact at all... GoT in Nag Hammadi is almost certainly recorded from a much earlier oral tradition, and I'm of the opinion that these saying are really early. Certainly not a Gnostic commentary... Lol. In any case, I think early on there were many different christianities, rather than the popular idea we have today of just one Christianity.

    Can't speak about 'Christ consiousness' as I haven't got a clue what it means.
     
  12. Ben Heaton

    Ben Heaton Member

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    The New Testament has many allusions to earlier oral and written traditions, as does Nag Hammadi. Some Nag Hammadi writings such as the Gospel of Thomas, which mentions Jesus by name, and has some elements which are thought to possibly come from the Q source, post-dates and seems to have New Testament writings as at least a partial source. I would agree that Nag Hammadi contains many earlier non-Christian sources as well.

    By "Christ Consciousness", I believe that Alex is referring to first-hand NDE accounts there the person dies and meets a Christ figure (edit- that the person explicitly identifies as Jesus Christ). Of the number of these that I have read, I can't think of a single one in which the person was not already a Christian whose religion was based on the New Testament. I would be interested to hear if anyone knows of an NDE CC experience in which the Christ figure was other than the NT Christ.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  13. Max_B

    Max_B Member

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    The way you've written that suggests it's fact... it ain't... there is a great deal of uncertainty... I tend towards the view that the majority of the oral sayings which have been recorded later within the GoT are probably the earliest we have access to, and there are very good reasons why. I'm certainly not alone in that view. It's definitely not a Gnostic commentary... lol.
     
  14. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    I'm no expert on the Christ Consciousness thing, but IIRC it came through movements like Theosophy which were much influenced by the Eastern traditions but didn't want to get rid of the Jesus stories. As people might expect, I think it's a way of having your cake and eat it, and the evidence for an historical figure is extraordinarily high given the background he came from. The spiritual role of that man is a matter of faith, not proof. FWIW the key for me are the accounts which showed Jesus's disciples to be cowardly deniers of their former friend, hiding in fear of their lives, but who subsequently transformed into talented preachers who embraced death and were responsible for starting a world religion, after what has come to be known as Pentecost. If one accepts the narrative as handed down, the events of that day (mightly wind, glossolalia, fearlessness, etc) represent a kind of massive psychic event that I find a convincing.
     
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  15. Ben Heaton

    Ben Heaton Member

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    I think that Alex's original question for this episode is interesting, what do we make of Christ Consciousness? Here is one site that has a number of CC accounts:

    http://www.near-death.com/science/research/jesus.html

    As I read these accounts, the people seem to be relating to the Jesus of the New Testament. In this sense the NT seems to me to have a powerful effect in "tuning" people toward an encounter with Christ in their NDE. Is there a factor other than Christianity of the NT that leads people to encounter Jesus in their NDE? I would be interested in the opinions that others have about this. (Edit- I am trying to address this independent of whether a Historical Jesus existed, or the source of the NT.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  16. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    It's true that atheists, Muslims, Jews and other non-Christians sometimes encounter Christ in NDEs. It's also the case that people have near death experiences without encountering anyone they recognise as Jesus. Impossible to be prescriptive about NDEs as they vary so much, but those who deny any identification of Jesus in NDEs are wide of the mark. Some people say this a cultural manifestation of love, a kind of post mortem tulpa and they may be correct, but the detailed descriptions mean the difference between real Jesus and symbolic Christ are as irrelevant as those between a living human person and the spiritual being he/she represents.
     
  17. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    I wonder if the diversity of NDE accounts reflects a diversity of the reality out there. We have been lead to believe in a very simple heaven, so we tend to assume that NDE'ers are all viewing the same thing, but suppose someone got a snapshot of life on earth - they could see a fantastic variety of possible scenes.

    David
     
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  18. gabriel

    gabriel New

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    In my Father's house there are many mansions, goes the quotation. There may be millions of heavens.
     
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  19. Psiclops

    Psiclops Member

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    I kinda think I'd heard enough with the case related of angry Josephine and suicide boy Zak.
    She admitted she told Josephine that Zak 'was attached to her in spirit form', so probably also told her she had a wonderful psychic talent and could see him standing behind her.
    Josephine was presumably well impressed and followed the good doctor's 'prescription' of tidying up the grave with a nice headstone which she was assured would make the haunting Zak feel much better.
    She was given the cause of her problem and the solution and like a placebo the 'medicine' worked a treat.
    And as the doctor said: "If it works why not do it?"
    I have no problem with that but it has no causal relationship with real truth of spiritual attachments - possibly more akin to the practice of witchdoctors throwing the bones.
    I have a friend working with past life regression who has great success in healing traumas who admits she doesn't believe most of the 'lives' her patients relate are real - but if it works, why not do it?
    It matters not to the person scared of water whether or not they were really drowned in a previous life, if they can overcome the fear in this one.
     
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  20. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Yes, but if her story is to be believed, this woman was not getting any help from conventional therapies. I am really reluctant to dismiss someone who can help someone that others could not.
    The problem is that it is easy to 'explain' phenomena this way, but my feeling is that we know pitifully little about consciousness, and all possibilities should be on the table.

    David
     

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