Skeptiko Roundtable with Seriah and Joshua from WhereDidTheRoadGo |339|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    So fear of boring us trumped the desire to benefit us! ;D

    Awesome quote, and from one of my favorite novels! :)

    Interestingly, Machiavelli addressed all these issues, and he said it so well, so I'll quote him:

    'he [a leader] ought to be slow to believe and to act, nor should he himself show fear, but proceed in a temperate manner with prudence and humanity, so that too much confidence may not make him incautious and too much distrust render him intolerable.
    [...]
    Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life, and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

    Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred'...

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm#link2HCH0017
     
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  2. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    Whew! I spent entirely too much time reading that! Lol... I thank he's sayin' what I'm sayin' but with better words. He has the best words. ;)

    There are no "entities" just relations (or ratios) between subjectively arbitrarily contextually determined boundaries and spaces (patterns). And so pattern is the intersection of subjectivity and objectivity; the inner and outer worlds; the cusp of creation and consciousness. Whatever is patterned is knowable because knowledge requires repetition or sameness. Novelty enters through ambiguity which is distortion in the self-reflection.

    Like a game of telephone, distortion is magnified with every subsequent reflection such that the original distortion in God's self-reflection as he brooded over the first ripple in the calm waters of creation has led to you, a reflection in the image of God, being here at this place in the labyrinth of mirrors. When you have the courage to take the red pill or fruit of knowledge, a course is plotted as the fractured mirror begins to heal itself revealing a progressively clarifying self-reflection culminating in the collapse of the "cavitation ball" between past/future, between the black/white-hole which is you in the now in your Einstein-Rosen brain bridge which is a 4D holographic projection of a 5-space (your soul) thus resulting in transcendence: a sense of oneness derived from having descended to the depths and ascended again the hierarchy to its singular peak which is a singularity of self-consciousness at which point words fail having no objects left to describe... and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour until boredom sets in and someone blows a trumpet and gets this whole thing going again...

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    I want to respond but spent too much time trying to read Sci's link so I have to work! lol will respond tho.
     
  4. David Bailey

    David Bailey Administrator

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    Could it be another fake paper generated by a computer algorithm?

    It reminds me of an SF story in which a message was received from space. Anyone who was bright enough to understand it, was sent mad or died!

    David
     
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  5. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    I don't get it either. It seems there's something fishy about quantum physics. Richard Dawkins often quotes favorably someone who says that if you think you understand quantum physics then you don't understand quantum physics.
    But to me this is priestly nonsense, Scientism at its most haughty.

    In the following speech, this Google worker claims that quantum mechanics shows how "we are a simulation running on a quantum computer".
    (see at the 54 minute mark)...

    The other day I heard a billionaire repeating the same wild speculation.
    But maybe this isn't "wild" speculation... Maybe if they can convince us that we are simulations in a giant computer, then we won't have a problem getting a computer implant/RFID-chip... After all, if we are simply simulations (as they claim) then there's no harm in getting a chip. Maybe they'll even claim that it's an experiment to access deeper levels of the "matrix"... But if they try this line of argumentation to get people implants, I don't think it'll work. Too many people will draw a line at a computer implant, no matter how hard they push for it.

    Btw, there's an interesting critique of Einsteinian physics and Quantum physics here:

     
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  6. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    The simulation hypothesis is another metaphor. It just means that there is a reality frame within which this reality is embedded. It is probably reality frames all the way down. Or a Dream within a dream within a dream... It is the same as the metaphor of endless self-reflection or being lost in a labyrinth of mirrors. The simulation hypothesis is the same thing just a different metaphor.
     
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  7. Nah, it's in line w/ Bitbol's other papers. I mean I get the issue with Structuralism w/out Idealism, but the explicit discussion of how QM fits in outruns my layman knowledge of QM.

    That last comment by me in the post was more a note about myself than a critique of the paper.
     
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  8. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    I listened to Dune on a 3000 mile road trip through Colorado and back :) fantastic book.

    The quote by Machiavelli ponders whether the leader should be feared or loved by the rabble; however, my focus is on whether the leader(s) love the people and seek their benefit with empathy or whether the leader(s) view them as chattel.

    Every hierarchy is a personality filter: it may start out with noble benevolent leadership, but the trend is for controlling sociopaths to eventually work their way to the top. The hierarchy then becomes corrupt and overbearing leading to discontent, instability, and finally either revolution or conquest by a stronger hierarchy.

    If someone could hit a magic anarchy reset button and instantly dissolve all government, class, and financial inequality across the entire planet, what would happen? Two forms of organizational structures would instantly begin to re-emerge: networking and hierarchy. Networking is built on mutual interest and reciprocity and is inherently benevolent. Hierarchy is a more effective structure for accomplishing large tasks that require many people and especially for martial operations.

    So after the anarchy reset button was hit, within a few minutes, someone somewhere would kill someone. People would immediately band together for protection. Those that are poorly organized will fall apart and be conquered or absorbed by others that are better organized. And so once again humanity is off and running on an arms race potentially leading to nuclear annihilation.

    So we have to have hierarchy for protection from other hierarchies that would conquer us without it.

    But there is also a more subtle power in the feminine form of organization: decentralized network. The weaker subtle feminine form needs the masculine form for protection from other masculine forms. When the feminine and masculine forms are joined with the masculine form ceding some of its power to the feminine in a benevolent way, the synthesis is an explosion of creativity.

    Balance between masculine and feminine structures is the ideal state of creation and this only comes about when there is benevolence on both parts, but primarily on the part of the masculine since it - being stronger - can overpower and abuse.

    This same principle of benevolent balance between the masculine and feminine structures is at work in political systems, the individual mind, marriage, and I think we can extrapolate this same principle into the realms beyond.

    God is our expression for the benevolent masculine structure of hierarchy. Lucifer and his fall as well as the gnostic Demiurge are expressions of corrupted hierarchy or overbearing structure. The devil is the malevolent trickster that overturns benevolent hierarchy and Jesus or other suffering heros and humble avatars of the divine are the benevolent tricksters that overturn the malevolent hierarchy.

    This all seems abstract and mythical, but structure is structure and I think it's all structure. So the very structure we find ourselves embedded within must necessarily have this same dynamic of masculine and feminine forms leading through benevolence (love) to its creation and stability.
     
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  9. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    If I remember correctly, Machiavelli does talk mainly about the masses in relation to the ruler (especially the ruler newly come to power), but I guess he implicitly was talking about keeping fellow aristocrats at bay as well, in order to stay in power. Interesting observation though if it's correct. I don't know why Machiavelli would have left that aspect about fellow aristocrats out of his book.
     
  10. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    Beautiful what you wrote on the masculine vs the feminine. It reminds me of what Tacitus wrote of the pre-Christian northern European tribes:
    'They [the men] even believe them [the women to be] endowed with something celestial and the spirit of prophecy. Neither do they disdain to consult them, nor neglect the responses which they return.'
     
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  11. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    But somehow I find this conflating an observation with the constitution of the cosmos. It's the same as what I wrote to Alex above in the thread (on the first page), about NDEs and conflating what one experiences (the feeling of love) with the purpose of life and/or the essence of the universe.

    The same with hierarchies and love. Just because there tends to form characteristic hierarchical structures, it doesn't necessarily mean that structure of any form, or generally, is somehow the essence of the cosmos. The same with the genders/sexes too. For example, there are asexual creatures, and there is great debate about what genders there are in humans, and this ambiguity even goes back into the distant past, with certain languages, for example, that have masculine and feminine articles for nouns. A case in point are the words for sun and moon (in French, masculine and feminine respectively), whereas in German they are the other way around. And German and other languages such as Latin even have a neuter gender...

    It just seems that we interpret the world based on our limited perspective of observations and conflate these observations with how the universe generally must be. It's like what Xenophanes wrote:

    'But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
    or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
    horses like horses and cattle like cattle
    also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
    of such a sort as the form they themselves have.'

    I don't have the answers to the ultimate purpose of life or the essence of the universe, but I think the best thing is to look at nature and accept that we have limited perceptions... Maybe it's a cop-out, but I'm still interested in other perspectives ;)
     
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  12. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    That's very interesting! I need to read more history, but I had the impression most Romans considered them to be barbarians. Maybe history sort of repeated there and here with the natives: the natives are generally demeaned as subhuman while being conquered, but a few historians and thinkers - especially after time has passed - had the objectivity to look back and recognize some meritorious traits in the peoples they conquered, the "noble savages."

    I admit it might be a stretch, but not without merit! :) I think it solves the hard problem of consciousness. Instead of "it's tiny bouncing billiard balls all the way down," we can say, "it's patterned structures of relations all the way down" and since pattern requires a subjective pattern overlay, consciousness (subjectivity) is inextricably intertwined in our fundamental axiom about reality.

    The idea with "transcendental structuralism" to borrow a label from Sci's link, is that there are no truly separate entities in an ontological sense, but merely relations - boundaries and spaces - and what is considered to be a boundary or a space or an entity is really just a way of framing a particular area of a pattern. One can zoom in or out - in other words - create a different frame and different entities emerge. So "entities" are the result of a subjective pattern overlay.

    Going to the whirlpool in a stream analogy: the whirlpool is a structure. Hydrodynamic forces called eddy currents behind a rock in a stream organize the water into a shape. Is the whirlpool an objective entity, or have we merely mentally drawn a dashed line to frame out a piece of the stream? It is mental framing or pattern overlay where subjectivity and objectivity intersect. We cannot deny that how one decides to overlay a pattern onto objective reality is entirely a subjective choice yet we see remarkably persistent patterns all over the place. In fact, for anything to exist it must consist of repeated relations which are patterns or structure. Since we can mentally break the oneness of reality down into pieces and stitch them back together with logic, reality must be constructed in this way.

    I'm tempted here to explain why I think the 5th spatial dimension can be labeled: meaning, but I'm out of time! I'll just leave it at this: how can anything change unless it has an identity? If it has no identity, then it is two completely different objects at t=0 and t=1. Motion requires identity and identity is subjective pattern overlay. Every spatial dimension is defined the next higher dimension: a point is a slice of a line, a line is a slice of a plane, a plane is a slice of solid body, a body is a slice of a timeline, and a timeline is a slice of...? I would say it is a slice of a 5-space which is the domain of meaning from which comes (among other things) identity - which is subjective pattern overlay.

    Great points! And I wish I had more time right now to respond, but gotta get to work on my house!
     
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  13. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    That was a stimulating post, so stimulating you almost short-circuited my mind :D

    Can you explain what this means though, I didn't understand:

    ...

    Could that be compared to a radio receiver where you can dial in to different frequencies?

    I think you're right.

    What do you (and others) think of Wallace Thornhill's view of the electric universe, etc.? Thornhill is my "go-to" source on such issues, and he says in this video that there is no such thing as 1D, 2D, or 4D, that there is only 3D:

     
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  14. Alex

    Alex New

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    my wife's a forensic psychologist so I've gone round and round with her a about this :)

    remember the BTK serial killer... a psychopath for sure... and a sadist.. and there's probably a lot of other psychological stuff going on there too -- but every sane person knows these acts are WRONG.

    ok, but the research I'm aware of seems to paint a different picture.

    NDErs are transformed -- After Effects
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  15. Alex

    Alex New

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    Hi Michael... I thought I gave a bunch in the show. for example, the UFO community is divided into nuts-and-bolts folk, and multi-dimensional and spiritual transformation folks... and at various times they're all taking a crack at the consciousness thing. Same goes for the many flavors of the Magic/k communities.
     
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  16. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    Wow, that's amazing. I didn't realize the transformations were so deep and happened in so many ways.

    E.g.: 'Energy surges up and down the body happen to many, and can be accompanied by "lights" in the air.'

    You remember on the previous page, the post I wrote about seeing lights in the sky, well I hadn't thought of the direct connection before, but on a couple of those evenings I also had such energy surges. It lasted for a minute or two each time. It was powerful waves of energy surging up and down my body, and it wasn't really physical but it made my body shake. One time it happened while lying in bed before sleep. Another time it happened while walking in the open-air carpark by the beach near the hostel. While walking through the carpark under the stars, the surging started, moving up and down, up and down my body. Then I saw a blinding white light, but it wasn't a physical light. I had to stop walking. Out of this blinding light I saw a scene, looking down from above at someone, a man in a simple white tunic, who was standing looking out from what looked like a massive-stone temple. There was a river beside the temple and despite the river it seemed like a dry climate. I sensed that the man was a priest and that this was a previous life, of me as a priest by this temple and it seemed like the ancient world. The figure didn't do anything, he was just standing there looking out. I saw this for maybe half a minute and then the scene disappeared; the white "light" subsided, and I could see around me again. Again I could look around in the carpark by the beach under the night sky. My body was shaking a bit, and I could still feel the energy surges going up and down my body for a while afterwards.

    Amazing experience. I'll never forget that. Apart from those couple of times, once lying in bed and once walking in the carpark, such a thing hadn't happened before and hasn't happened since. But I'd never made the direct connection that this experience could have had something directly to do with the small "lights"/UFOs up in the sky we saw, as I described on the previous page.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  17. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    PS: On reflection, it's remarkable I didn't think that there could be a direct connection between seeing the small lights in the sky (the UFOs) and during the same period of time, on two evenings when there was surging energy going up and down my body, and on the last of those occasions seeing what seemed like a previous life. I think the reason for not noticing the connection was that I wasn't aware of UFOs in the sky at the exact time of the energy surging, even though it happened during the same period of about a week. And secondly, I was looking for some mundane reason for the small lights in the sky, to explain them away, or, if they were something else, then I assumed they would be some nuts and bolts physical flying objects. I didn't have the frame of reference that they could be "spiritual" lights.
     
  18. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    It means that boundaries are arbitrarily superimposed upon objective reality by an observer. The observer draws mental dashed lines around areas and assigns names to them based on similarity to other areas of observation. The identified objects are not self-existent and ontologically separated from the rest of the objective world, but it is the mind of the observer that overlays a pattern which creates the "illusion" of separation. The letters on this screen are just varying intensities of light, but your mind draws little boxes around different areas and assigns meaning (close to the same meaning I assign them but not exactly the same). The whirlpool in the stream cannot exist alone. It only exists within the context of the stream and the stream within the earth and the earth within the universe. So we can zoom out to dissolve the mental boundaries or patterns we impose upon reality. Or we can dissolve boundaries by zooming in: the whirlpool is composed of water which passes through it. From one moment to the next there are different water molecules that make up the whirlpool. And those water molecules are composed of other smaller stuff.

    What is it about you that makes you the same person from one moment to the next? Like the whirlpool, matter is flowing through you. You're shedding cells and taking in new matter. Your existence makes no logical sense without the context of the earth and the universe. Your mind is also slowly steadily changing. Identity is really just a sufficiently low enough relative rate of change for an observer to draw a mental box around it or connect the dots.

    Sure. It's all about selective focus or framing which is pattern overlay.

    I listened to it, but honestly all I got out of it was that Thornhill doesn't care much for Einstein. I didn't get any new insights from it, but maybe that's just me and the way I framed it. ;)

    A dimension is a similar difference... kind of like a metaphor! A dimension is a way of thinking that allows you to say: it's the same in this direction, but different in this direction. This can be quantified with an equation or visualized as a shape. Y=X/2 contains an equals sign which is the similarity and the 1/2*X is the difference.

    So yes there are more than 3 dimensions, but only three can be visualized by us. A person's life is a 4D shape. Every moment choices are made and parallel timelines exist and it's the 5th dimension that connects them. Choice yields meaning and meaning directly connects different points in the timeline which is why I say the 5th dimension is the realm of meaning.

    So you could think of your soul or soul group as a 5D shape - or rather a mentally bounded area of the universal 5D shape and the specific timeline you are now experiencing as a 4D projection of that shape.
     
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  19. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    Thanks, and powerfully written too! I guess you know these references, but what you wrote reminds me of what Aristotle said regarding identity, about whether if you take away a certain element, say a leg of a chair, is it still a chair?; and what if you keep taking legs off the chair, and maybe the back-rest as well, is it then still a chair and at which point is it not?

    The droplet of water example was a favorite metaphor for the view of the soul in three branches of Vedanta: That is, whether all is simply one (Advaita/lit. "not-two"); whether the droplet is partially connected (Vishishtadvaita/"Advaita with qualifications"); or whether the water drop has a truly separate identity (Dvaita/"two"/dualism).

    I think Alex made a good point in the interview along this sort of line, that there are reductionist materialists on one hand, and those on the other hand who say consciousness is everything. But what does the data say...
     
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  20. Nelson

    Nelson Member

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    PS: Just to quote people who know more about these things than me, I noticed how in the interview with Alex, Seriah and Joshua, plasma and the electric universe were mentioned.

    The following interview is the best I've heard with the main plasma/electric universe scientist, Wallace Thornhill, and the interviewer is none other than Seriah. It dovetails with much of what Skeptiko has covered over the years: about how science hasn't been discarding theories that don't match the data, but instead creates theory upon theory to cover up the original theory's holes. The interview covers cosmology and mythology, which stunningly parallels David Mathisen's work. At 41 minutes into the interview you can hear more on what Thornhill says about dimensions, calling 1D simply "a mathematical convenience". At 48 minutes I was reminded of the researcher where Skeptiko started, Sheldrake (especially his disclosures on the so-called "constants"). From 51 minutes Thornhill dismisses Quantum Theory. And the interview ends with Thornhill's tantalizingly brief statement about what his view of consciousness is...

    http://www.wheredidtheroadgo.com/show-archive/2015/item/200-may-2-2015

    Also related:
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017

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