Study Shows Long Term Memories are not stored in Synapses

#1
From a new UCLA study:

For decades, most neuroscientists have believed that memories are stored at the synapses — the connections between brain cells, or neurons — which are destroyed by Alzheimer’s disease. The new study provides evidence contradicting the idea that long-term memory is stored at synapses.

“Long-term memory is not stored at the synapse,” said David Glanzman, a senior author of the study, and a UCLA professor of integrative biology and physiology and of neurobiology. “That’s a radical idea, but that’s where the evidence leads."
 
#3
IMO their claims about memory are as incorrect as most others. "Look ma, it's the neurons." They're still operating on materialist precepts.
Jumping the gun saiko. You might want to read the article; you'd find out they have themselves firmly anchored in a physicalist perspective.
 
#5
I found the actual results of the study interesting. I am not particularly interested in their speculations. Of course they will take a physicalist guess - no surprise there. There will always be some other physical structure they can jump to.

Oh, It's not the synapses? It must be the neurons that store memories.
Oh, It's not the neurons? It must be the [insert materialist speculation] that store memories.
etc.

To me, the takeaway form this article is the memory synapse theory has been officially disproven. We don't know how memories are stored, if "stored" is even a proper word for the situation. There is a gap in our knowledge, and these scientists are playing the old "materialism of the gaps" argument, as usual.
 
#6
Memories are stored everywhere. I have memories of beautiful early autumn sunsets on the bank of a river where I spent many lazy late afternoons during my childhood, for example.
 
#8
Sci posted a link to another article about the same study just before Xmas...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/new-stuff-in-neuroscience.1296/page-17#post-49722

As you point out, it all adds to the growing body of evidence that actual memories are not stored within the neurons...I commented on the other thread.... but..

...to add a little bit more to what I've already written there, they really should be guessing at this anyway, otherwise we can't explain memory, processing, and periodicity evidence in simple non-neuron containing organisms with centrioles such as slime mold etc.

Hopefully at some point they will put this all together with the low oxygen extreme stress, and overriding of temperature controls in the brain during sleep/dreaming etc. In this case, it seems quite likely to me that we're literally picking up our previous waking periods conscious experiences, and storing the cumulative results as spatial patterns in the brains networks, so we can access them in the future - as learnt behaviors, or specific events etc.

That appears - to me- to be what consciousness is possibly about... the unzipping of information into our perceptions of space, time, energy, matter, so that our observations get accreted back into the information.

For instance, somebody recently posted this about a childs past lives... which if true, just fit's with these ideas...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/child-remembers-past-life-as-911-firefighter.1622/

and I can't think of a better way of explaining the typical hospital NDE OBE... etc. In fact I can't think of much which doesn't fit with it.
 
#9
And what exactly is the difference between a materialist and physicalist? It's still a stubborn refusal to see how incomplete and completely lacking in substance any theory of "reality" is which specifically excludes from the get go the consciousness which is itself making the observation.

I'm always a bit disappointed when I see this big, boastful headline about how scientists have made some amazing discovery, only to read about the actual research and find how simplistic their methodology really is and how far reaching the conclusions are based on so very little evidence. Yet the science community is so quick to point out the gaps in any research which challenges the materialistic paradigm. The scientific community as a whole can be so blind to their own "materialism in the gaps" explanation for nearly every natural phenomenon. I struggle to think of even one scientific assertion that doesn't contain at least a trace of this.
 
#10
IMHO, science is barking up the wrong tree. I don't think science will ever find the answer they are looking for using current methodology. It's going to require a paradigm shift of magnanimous proportions and the development of new methodologies to even begin to approximate what consciousness even is, much less something complex like memory.

Until then, all they will ever have are labels for phenomena, not true explanations.

They can say the word "energy" all day long and still not come any closer to an explanation for what that even is. You hear all the time scientists talk about transfers of energy, without ever grasping just what that really means. Because they don't really know. For some reason, merely giving a name to something (a label) makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside as though we've solved the puzzle, but we haven't. We are no closer now than we were a hundred years ago to explaining what memory even is, much less it's mechanism.
 
#11
Sci posted a link to another article about the same study just before Xmas...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/new-stuff-in-neuroscience.1296/page-17#post-49722

As you point out, it all adds to the growing body of evidence that actual memories are not stored within the neurons...I commented on the other thread.... but..

...to add a little bit more to what I've already written there, they really should be guessing at this anyway, otherwise we can't explain memory, processing, and periodicity evidence in simple non-neuron containing organisms with centrioles such as slime mold etc.

Hopefully at some point they will put this all together with the low oxygen extreme stress, and overriding of temperature controls in the brain during sleep/dreaming etc. In this case, it seems quite likely to me that we're literally picking up our previous waking periods conscious experiences, and storing the cumulative results as spatial patterns in the brains networks, so we can access them in the future - as learnt behaviors, or specific events etc.

That appears - to me- to be what consciousness is possibly about... the unzipping of information into our perceptions of space, time, energy, matter, so that our observations get accreted back into the information.

For instance, somebody recently posted this about a childs past lives... which if true, just fit's with these ideas...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/child-remembers-past-life-as-911-firefighter.1622/

and I can't think of a better way of explaining the typical hospital NDE OBE... etc. In fact I can't think of much which doesn't fit with it.
Just to make it a bit more clear for myself - you are talking about some sort of experience/information transfer, right? Where information that one organism gathered can be transfered to another in some sort of way?
 
#12
Just to make it a bit more clear for myself - you are talking about some sort of experience/information transfer, right? Where information that one organism gathered can be transfered to another in some sort of way?
Urgh... I'm not sure I can answer that simply....

If I experience a typical 'time slip', such as that related by Jung, was information transferred to him?
 
#13
Urgh... I'm not sure I can answer that simply....

If I experience a typical 'time slip', such as that related by Jung, was information transferred to him?
I expected that. You never want to answer anything simply :p

I dont know. Propably... i guess? I dont see any other way for him seeing that what he saw. He propably wasnt possesed by a spirit or something, right? He could have remembered some past life memories, but thats just as good as information transfer.
 
#14
I expected that. You never want to answer anything simply :p

I dont know. Propably... i guess? I dont see any other way for him seeing that what he saw. He propably wasnt possesed by a spirit or something, right? He could have remembered some past life memories, but thats just as good as information transfer.
Yeah, it's just not possible to give simple answers. I'm just not sure whether anything is/is not transferred... On an everyday level we perceive patterns transferred over space, and/or time using energy/matter....

But if it's coherent interference, in a spatial pattern of activation in the present brain, which so closely matches a past pattern, where the past pattern was associated with strong feelings (which I believe indicates a large amount of temporal processing - ie over time), then the present brain is being interfered with by the past brain.

Both patterns are as one, coherent, and processing what external reality should be like.

I'm just not sure I can say they are transferring information. They are when viewed from a space-time perspective, but space, time, matter and energy are only the result of processing something else in my view.
 
#15
Yeah, it's just not possible to give simple answers. I'm just not sure whether anything is/is not transferred... On an everyday level we perceive patterns transferred over space, and/or time using energy/matter....

But if it's coherent interference, in a spatial pattern of activation in the present brain, which so closely matches a past pattern, where the past pattern was associated with strong feelings (which I believe indicates a large amount of temporal processing - ie over time), then the present brain is being interfered with by the past brain.

Both patterns are as one, coherent, and processing what external reality should be like.

I'm just not sure I can say they are transferring information. They are when viewed from a space-time perspective, but space, time, matter and energy are only the result of processing something else in my view.
well yeah. i could also imagine that information isnt getting transfered, we just "access" the information that we gathered at various points in time . coul be like a backlog of information/consciousness that can be accessed from any point in time. but its hard to say, true. the whole thing is kind of fascinating and totally open for all kinds of theories.
 
#16
well yeah. i could also imagine that information isnt getting transfered, we just "access" the information that we gathered at various points in time . coul be like a backlog of information/consciousness that can be accessed from any point in time. but its hard to say, true. the whole thing is kind of fascinating and totally open for all kinds of theories.
Yep, summat rather like that. And then from a space-time perspective we could have the classic information type transfer that we are more comfortable with on a day to day basis.

So you can have both, and which is more appropriate is dependent on your perspective. But both are allowed.

You see I think there are 'two' mechanisms in the brain. One that does the classic spatial storage pattern (perhaps networks, of dendrites and dendritic spines), just as you said above, this stores regularly used patterns, so we can reaccess a specific spatial memory in the future via the second mechanism of coherent interference.

Because time and space are the same thing, you constantly have to twist whatever is doing the coherent processing to be able to calculate from a spatial perception (with no time), to a temporal perception (with no space), and absolutely everything in between... All at the same moment of conscious experience.

When it's got a lot of information to process, time expands and space collapses, because it can't exceed it's information processing capacity - which we see here as the speed of light.
 
#17
Yep, summat rather like that. And then from a space-time perspective we could have the classic information type transfer that we are more comfortable with on a day to day basis.

So you can have both, and which is more appropriate is dependent on your perspective. But both are allowed.

You see I think there are 'two' mechanisms in the brain. One that does the classic spatial storage pattern (perhaps networks, of dendrites and dendritic spines), just as you said above, this stores regularly used patterns, so we can reaccess a specific spatial memory in the future via the second mechanism of coherent interference.

Because time and space are the same thing, you constantly have to twist whatever is doing the coherent processing to be able to calculate from a spatial perception (with no time), to a temporal perception (with no space), and absolutely everything in between... All at the same moment of conscious experience.

When it's got a lot of information to process, time expands and space collapses, because it can't exceed it's information processing capacity - which we see here as the speed of light.
I imagine that could explain also why people seem to remember stuff from the life's of others or propably themselves in another human form. They just access some sort of remote storage that isnt bound to our definition of time and space. Sounds interesting.
 
#18
I imagine that could explain also why people seem to remember stuff from the life's of others or propably themselves in another human form. They just access some sort of remote storage that isnt bound to our definition of time and space. Sounds interesting.
Yes. I seem to have the most success explaining things with specific individual examples... take an experience a friend had just last month.

He's a teacher in school, the school is being rebuilt under the UK's PFI scheme. Part of the existing school where he works needs to be immediately demolished, as they will be building the new school over this area.

They've temporarily relocated his department to a vacant block within the existing school which was closed and boarded up a few years ago, and has not been used since.

A couple of days after moving into his relocated building, he was walking towards the external entrance doors, in a sort of day dream state of mind, when he became aware through the glass of the doors that the lights were on, and some children were mucking around inside. He distinctly remembers a girl with long blond hair chucking something.

He felt strong annoyance, and the sense of motivation that he needed to take action, as no children should have been in the building at this time. He strode towards the glass doors with the intention of telling the children off, pulled the handle to open one of the doors, and there was nobody there, no lights were on either. Indeed when he looked at the door he had just opened, it has no glass in it to see through. When the building had been originally vacated, the doors had been boarded over for security.

Now my explanation for this concerns the pattern of the building and it's doors, which ultimately create a correlated pattern of neuronal firing in the viewers brain. That relative pattern of neuron firing creates amplified/cancelled calculating fields (i.e. syncronised waves amplify, unsyncronised waves cancel out), which activate areas of the brains network for coherent interference, that pattern of network activations allows processing to take place with all matching patterns outside of what we know as space-time.

In this case, I suggest my friend has - whilst in a day-dream like state - created a pattern of coherent interference that matches a past pattern of coherent interference from a third party in the past. Almost certainly another teacher, who was feeling strongly at that moment (remember - that means processing across time). In effect, he temporarily experienced the perceptions of that other teacher from the past. This doesn't mean he somehow received a copy of those perceptions, in my view he actually experienced the same perception.

My belief is that this type of experience is more likely to be experienced where an external world pattern has been unused/unexposed for a long period of time. Examples would be perhaps... A door has been boarded over and uncovered, a fireplace has been discovered behind some panels, a hand painted picture has been discovered by a relative.

Where a pattern is in constant day-to-day public use, the coherent interference becomes 'smeared' - due to so many past meanings/observations for the same pattern. But where a well used pattern is abandoned, and then rediscovered, the past mundane day-to-day smearing falls away as these mundane observations did not need much processing-over-time to make the observation. This leaves the strong feelings (which process over a lot of time) more starkly exposed. Without all the other mundane observations, they become less smeared - they stand out.

In the future, in the right person, and in the right state, a person may inadvertently become coherent with one of these strong perceptions from the past, such that they can obviously notice the incongruence between their usual perception, and this odd perception. A roman soldier walking past, a person dressed up in uniform from the middle ages, a stranger appears in their house etc... as we get closer to our own time period, the incongruence becomes less easy to spot and identify. Most people just write-off the odd everyday happenings anyway.

In my view, this is going on all the time, it is how we are, its what we are. Obviously the patterns we are most coherent with, are our own patterns, from just a few moments ago. After that, we are perhaps more likely to be more coherent with siblings and parents, because their networks/experiences are so similar to our own networks. Then we may meet people who we feel are on our wavelength, who we get on with. Eventually at the other extreme we meet people who have such different networks and experiences that we have nothing in common, indeed we often can't understand their point of view at all, as we're both speaking a different language.

You might get all that... you might not... lol...
 
#19
Yes. I seem to have the most success explaining things with specific individual examples... take an experience a friend had just last month.

He's a teacher in school, the school is being rebuilt under the UK's PFI scheme. Part of the existing school where he works needs to be immediately demolished, as they will be building the new school over this area.

They've temporarily relocated his department to a vacant block within the existing school which was closed and boarded up a few years ago, and has not been used since.

A couple of days after moving into his relocated building, he was walking towards the external entrance doors, in a sort of day dream state of mind, when he became aware through the glass of the doors that the lights were on, and some children were mucking around inside. He distinctly remembers a girl with long blond hair chucking something.

He felt strong annoyance, and the sense of motivation that he needed to take action, as no children should have been in the building at this time. He strode towards the glass doors with the intention of telling the children off, pulled the handle to open one of the doors, and there was nobody there, no lights were on either. Indeed when he looked at the door he had just opened, it has no glass in it to see through. When the building had been originally vacated, the doors had been boarded over for security.

Now my explanation for this concerns the pattern of the building and it's doors, which ultimately create a correlated pattern of neuronal firing in the viewers brain. That relative pattern of neuron firing creates amplified/cancelled calculating fields (i.e. syncronised waves amplify, unsyncronised waves cancel out), which activate areas of the brains network for coherent interference, that pattern of network activations allows processing to take place with all matching patterns outside of what we know as space-time.

In this case, I suggest my friend has - whilst in a day-dream like state - created a pattern of coherent interference that matches a past pattern of coherent interference from a third party in the past. Almost certainly another teacher, who was feeling strongly at that moment (remember - that means processing across time). In effect, he temporarily experienced the perceptions of that other teacher from the past. This doesn't mean he somehow received a copy of those perceptions, in my view he actually experienced the same perception.

My belief is that this type of experience is more likely to be experienced where an external world pattern has been unused/unexposed for a long period of time. Examples would be perhaps... A door has been boarded over and uncovered, a fireplace has been discovered behind some panels, a hand painted picture has been discovered by a relative.

Where a pattern is in constant day-to-day public use, the coherent interference becomes 'smeared' - due to so many past meanings/observations for the same pattern. But where a well used pattern is abandoned, and then rediscovered, the past mundane day-to-day smearing falls away as these mundane observations did not need much processing-over-time to make the observation. This leaves the strong feelings (which process over a lot of time) more starkly exposed. Without all the other mundane observations, they become less smeared - they stand out.

In the future, in the right person, and in the right state, a person may inadvertently become coherent with one of these strong perceptions from the past, such that they can obviously notice the incongruence between their usual perception, and this odd perception. A roman soldier walking past, a person dressed up in uniform from the middle ages, a stranger appears in their house etc... as we get closer to our own time period, the incongruence becomes less easy to spot and identify. Most people just write-off the odd everyday happenings anyway.

In my view, this is going on all the time, it is how we are, its what we are. Obviously the patterns we are most coherent with, are our own patterns, from just a few moments ago. After that, we are perhaps more likely to be more coherent with siblings and parents, because their networks/experiences are so similar to our own networks. Then we may meet people who we feel are on our wavelength, who we get on with. Eventually at the other extreme we meet people who have such different networks and experiences that we have nothing in common, indeed we often can't understand their point of view at all, as we're both speaking a different language.

You might get all that... you might not... lol...
Would not it be simpler to say that all events are printed holographically in space-time and they can again be perceived by someone passing through the area? Also this can not explain the cases of apparitions that interact with witnesses, but this is another topic.
 
#20
Would not it be simpler to say that all events are printed holographically in space-time and they can again be perceived by someone passing through the area?
Yes, in the sense that each individual spatial location connects to all temporal locations, and also the opposite, that each individual temporal location connects to all spatial locations, I think the hologram exposes something intrinsic about the nature of our existence, and demonstrates something very important about the role played by coherent interference.

I spent some time on Susskind's ideas for the holographic universe back in 2008, I think they are very valuable, but those and similar ideas only go so far.

I want to show people that it is possibly space/time which is at the heart of our experiences, and it extends across 'all' perception as I tried to get across in my thread on 'your sense of space' (i.e. the internal perceptions of feelings, emotions, thoughts, and the perception of the body, as well as the external world). I also wanted to find an idea for how it might work, and show some specific examples in the real world - one example of which I was aiming for in my last post. Lastly, I wanted to take these ideas, and apply them to the world to explain particular every-day issues that we currently have no real solutions for.

One line sentences may be simpler, but they tell me little about why, and how, and so can't provide me with practical applications to every-day problems.

I want to explain why a society can rise, then go into decline. I want to know why brand's have been so successful. I want to know what drives fashion. I want to know how my ideas integrate with competition vs cooperation. I want to know why energy is such a tool for control. I want to understand the effects of architecture and planning regulations on a society. I want to expose potential issues behind pattern creation, and meaning. I want to understand the effects of mass production and mass media. My ideas relate to these issues.

They suggest there are some real pressing practical issues, and an important debate to be had here, over the level of 'controls' on pattern creation within any society, and the level of 'controls' on the creation of meaning.
 
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