Survival of Consciousness after Death - Skeptiko Community Led List

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Zach Abraham R, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Hello Skeptiko!
    Alex asked me to take the lead on developing a little bit of a primer on survival of consciousness after death with the help of everyone in the forums. We’d like you all to throw in some interesting points you’ve come across either on Skeptiko or through your related interests. Hopefully we can have a discussion around them and create something along the lines of a ‘Top Ten’ list around the topic that can then be posted on the website for anyone, whether they’re just discovering either the Skeptiko pod and community or the survival of consciousness issue. There is enough knowledge and wisdom among the Skeptiko community that it’d be a crime not to get those of you interested involved in the discussion.


    - Consciousness is not produced by the brain - during NDEs the blind see, the deaf hear

    -After-Death Communications - mediums having encounters with 'spirits of the dead' where information is given that could not have come from another source, and is later verified

    - Reincarnation - Children with memories of a past existence that is later verified

    - Crisis Apparitions/ Death-bed Visions/ Shared Death Experience - Those close to death report seeing spirit beings who appear to help them into the next realm. Also, a recently deceased person's 'spirit' may appear to close friends around the time of death (multiple people report seeing). Also, those close to someone at the point of death have reported sharing the experience of dying spontaneously, later verified. (do these go together??)

    -NDE After-effects - Those who've experienced an NDE later report major personality/life changes, spontaneous healing of terminal/serious illness, and the Pauli Effect (electrical interference)

    - The existence of God/Supreme Being - in Dr Jeffrey Long's extensive reporting, nearly 97% of those who've experienced an NDE return with specific conformation about the existence of God/Supreme being

    - Out of Body Experiences (Veridical NDEs?) - people report floating to alternate places and overhearing conversations they could not have

    - Hauntings/Ghosts - Hauntings and ghosts associated with places/people (??)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  2. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    An easy example to begin with is:

    • A functioning brain is not necessary for the existence of consciousness. OR Consciousness exists outside of the human brain

    There are any number of sources to use here, but the one I had in mind is “Mindsight” by Ring & Cooper. It is a study of Near Death and Out of Body Experiences in the blind.

    Obviously when blind people are having verified accounts of sight while clinically dead, survival of consciousness after death seems to be a shoe-in
     
  3. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, but I have written somewhat on the evidence for the afterlife:

    Evidence for the afterlife
    https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/summary_of_evidence
    Much more at the link


    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articl...by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_afterlife

    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-materialist-explanation-of.html
    At the link, each of these points has a link to a separate article explaining the assertion.


    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html
     
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  4. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Thanks Jim, That's a wonderful post! You've just about covered it!

    One thing I'd throw in the mix here is the existence of God/Supreme Being/Higher Power
    In listening to Dr. Jeffrey Long on episode #327 he throws out the stunning figure that nearly 97% of those returning from an NDE experience specifically verify the existence of a Supreme Being etc
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  5. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    A note on this thread...

    We may change the direction, but for now let's separate the NDE Science & Materialist rebuttals side of the picture, and save it for a different thread perhaps.

    Obviously the two issues are closely related, but the final form of this 'Top Ten' list might be better served if it focused solely on issues around survival of consciousness after death. The Materialist ideas that say survival of consciousness isn't possible don't really lead anywhere when faced with a lot of points you've made above!
     

  6. I've written somewhat on that subject too.


    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articles-and-links-arranged-by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_god
    Intelligent design does not presuppose who the designer is, but I'm including it below because some people will say the designer is God by definition, ie. whoever designed the universe and life on earth should be considered God even if that entity is not the God of the bible. (If you are going to pursue this subject, you should also be aware that some other people object so strenuously to the God of the bible that they are not willing to accept the use of the word "God" under any circumstances and will demand a different word for any entity Supreme Being identified by scientific or other empirical evidence.)

    Anyone who is not familiar with intelligent design should be aware it is not based on negative arguments (ie: "if science can't explain it, it must be God"). Intelligent design is based on positive arguments such as the logic Darwin used: phenomenon that occurred in the past should be explained by processes known to be occurring today that are capable of causing the phenomenon. Intelligence, known to be capable of producing codes and using mathematics, is the best explanation for the genetic code and for the fine tuning of the universe to support life. See the links for details of the argument and rebuttals to common objections:

    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articles-and-links-arranged-by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_id
    This is a table of contents of summaries of articles arranged by subject. Each summary contains a link to the full article.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  7. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    Can i add in PMH Atwaters thing about saying people who have had NDE's seem to experience aftereffects like electrical interference , i dunno if you used it but it could be handy :D

    funnily enough, ghost detectors/hunters use electrical devices like EMF detectors and that to try detect ghosts, so .... i guess i could link the two together

    so unless chest paddles and something fancy in the hospital drugs are causing these weird incidents .... its kind of extra verification that there was something happening with the NDE
     
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  8. What you are referring to is called the Pauli Effect, named after Nobel Prize winning physicist Wolfgang Pauli who was banned by physicist Otto Stern from his lab because Pauli would damage his laboratory apparatus simply by walking into the room.
    https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers#researchers_pauli
     
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  9. Alex

    Alex New

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    Hey Zack... thx for kicking this off. I wonder if we should work from the bottom up i.e. find the shows/guests we want to highlight and then do the top 10, or go top down with the list first and then the show/guest. here are some of the ones that come to mind:

    - peer-review science on reincarnation shows that yr consciousness survives death.
    - tightly controlled experiments with mediums suggest that after-death communication is real
    - over 200 published papers on near death experience science suggest that consciousness survives
    - virtually all great thinkers throughout time and across every culture have concluded consciousness survives death
    - science doesn't know enough about consciousness to conclude otherwise
    - philosophically weak (don't know how to phrase)
     
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  10. Alex

    Alex New

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    thx Jim. there's a lot of great stuff on yr blog... great resource for this project.
     
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  11. Alex

    Alex New

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    who else should we invite to this thread?
     
  12. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    looks like the wikipedia article has been hit by the skeptics o-e and wired

    Oddly enough i've kind of had the pauli effect at times, but i found it might be related to my blood type?
     
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  13. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Sounds good Alex. Here's a little start.

    Jeffrey Long #329 - I think this may be one of the most encompassing pods I can think of. Dr Long covers a ton of ground and in terms of a top pod to listen to in order, this may be a good #1 to start with, or #10 depending on how you see it...

    PMH Atwater #152 -
    Thank you ellyroo for throwing this into the discussion. It's a great pod to consider for the list. One thing she mentions is that she considers the after-effects of an NDE to be an important classification of whether or not one has experienced an actual NDE. A re-thinking of the guidelines for what an NDE experiencer is may be an important point...

    Piero Calvi-Parisetti #319 - This one is nice to add as it focuses on the grief and bereavement alleviation that goes along not only with experiencing an NDE, but also in cases of those who've lost close relationships- simply learning about NDEs and survival of consciousness after death can help ease suffering around death.
     
  14. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    A good pod to go with this point is Jan Holden #291

    The discussion of NDE motifs across religious & cultural literature like angels, heaven, the existence of the Supreme Being etc
     
  15. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    how about NDE cases of , athiests meeting jesus, maybe muslims meeting jesus, christians meeting buddha, etc etc

    also NDE's that have brough back information that they and others may have not have known in terms of like, figures like unknown deities, or meeting relatives that have passed they simply would not have known about, then discovered (through the NDE) could be good verification, cause it could refute the whole didn't see the number in the room thing
     
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  16. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    A couple more pods:

    Lisa Smartt #348 - this relates to 'Crisis Apparitions' & 'Death Bed Visions' two of Jim_Smith's well-defined points in his first post

    Paul Davids #321 - Although this pod is a little light on the actual stories of after death communication and the guest is not involved in research, the story itself speaks volumes about the issue. An atheist promises on his death bed that if life after death exists, he will attempt to communicate with his friends from the afterlife and sure enough...
     
  17. Alex

    Alex New

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  18. Alex

    Alex New

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    both of these are great... an ideas in terms of how we would title in a top 10 list?
     
  19. Alex

    Alex New

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    I wonder if we could use the nonsense on wiki as a counter-point-that-make-the-point on our top 10 list?
     
  20. Alex

    Alex New

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    we oughta define who our target audience is for this post/yt/episode... any thoughts?
     

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