Survival of Consciousness after Death - Skeptiko Community Led List

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Zach Abraham R, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Laird

    Laird Member

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    Hey Zach; Wormwood; Charlie; Jim, and others. My attention at the moment is spread thin, so apologies for not participating as thoughtfully in this thread as I might otherwise have. That said, I have had a quick rescan through it, and re the questions/issues in the most recent few posts, I would say:

    1. Include quantum mechanics, but put it way down the list - at best, it suggests that consciousness might - because, as an "observer", it causally affects material states such as whether a phenomenon is a wave or a particle - be in some sense "independent" of "matter". To go from there to "consciousness survives death" is "not quite conclusive", to put it euphemistically, but hey, it's a small and at least consistent piece of evidence, and, as Jim says in so many words, it might be more significant to others than it is to me.
    2. Veridical NDEs or OBEs? For sure! These are amongst the best evidence!
     
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  2. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    My thinking is it might be redundant next to the common NDEs. Is there something I'm missing about the phenomenon that adds? Would love to know what you're thinking about it...
     
  3. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    As for Quantum Mechanics, I'm thinking with Laird when he says it should be included but perhaps at the bottom of the list.
     
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  4. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    Veridical NDEs are about the most important piece of evidence IMO.

    Ghosts are tough, because to be convinced, you simply have to listen to dozens and dozens of people tell their stories. When you see the sincerity on their faces and start to notice the consistency of all the reports, that’s when you start to take it seriously. But of course we can’t do that on one thread. Depending upon how the post is structure; I think it may be worth a mention perhaps, but I wouldn’t attempt to demonstrste it, because you really can’t. Same for QM. Maybe mentioned at the bottom like others have said. Veridical NDEs are the best thing we have IMO. People accurately reporting what is going on in other rooms when they are dead is about as good of evidence as you could dream for.
     
  5. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    Maybe demonstrate the best reasons we have to believe that consciousness is separate from the brain, and then go into why we believe that consciousness survives bodily death? It’s easier to believe it survives bodily death when you’ve demonstrated that it’s a seperate thing from the body
     
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  6. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    Something like this perhaps

    Why is Consciousness separate

    1) Quantum Physics
    2) Psi research
    3) Placebo effect
    Etc etc

    Why does consciousness survive

    1) NDE
    —A) Veridical NDE
    —B) the blind see the deaf hear
    — C) etc

    2) The Medium data
    —A)
    —B)

    3) The universal experience across time and location of ghosts. (I can write something for this section since it’s the area I probably know the most about)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  7. Laird

    Laird Member

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    I'd put it the other way around when it comes to objective evidence for the survival of consciousness: common NDEs are redundant next to veridical NDEs. Without the veridical component, an NDE is subject to dismissal as merely a subjective experience, i.e., in the same category as everyday dreams and "hallucinations", which can't be objectively proved to be anything other than "brain-based". Veridical confirmation objectively precludes such a dismissal; especially when the brain is dysfunctional, it proves that consciousness is independent of the brain, which strongly suggests the possibility that consciousness survives biological death.
     
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  8. http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/near-death-experiences-and-afterlife.html#facts_esp
    (the original contains links to more info)
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/04/proof-of-esp-1889-1997.html
    (the original contains links to more info)
     
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  9. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    aftereffects of NDE's need further study , cause that should be good evidence to suggest something external may very well have happened
     
  10. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    And that’s another area where perhaps the only way to be convinced is to listen to case after case, and when you begin to see the pattern, you know. But I think the best we can do is to simply explain that. We could quote Moody or Long etc as I know they’ve spoken a fair amount about this.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Member

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    Dean Radin has this to say about the ‘observer effect’:

    “That's a door that opens just a crack, for the nature of consciousness meeting with physicality".

    For me it was my ‘eureka’ moment. It set me off on a never ending journey.
     
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  12. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    i know there is a video on it, but it seems not to be given as much light as general NDE's but the after effects could be basically your proof, and maybe..... maybe could explaina way the reductionist explainations for NDE's

    cause if it was all head based, then these after effects shouldn't simply happen right?
     
  13. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    I think that’s genrally true. AT LEAST it shouldn’t cause effects as profound as we see in NDErs. Their lives change profoundly and forever. I have dreams at night that I consider profound, but by the end of the day I’ve usually forgotten. And this fits the fact that NDErs state that their experience is not only dreamlike, but it’s more real than everyday experience. Ie-everyday life is a dream compared to the ultra real reality experience of the afterlife.
     
  14. ellyroo

    ellyroo Member

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    I would need to think on it

    Cause the attitude changes could be ..... well explained away by the fact they were so close to death, so it giving them a new vigour of life?

    but the physical changes, like electrical interference , objects failing, etc, defo ..... harder to explain away, unless there is some extra conductivity induced by chest paddles in cases of Cardiac arrest or .... somehow hospital medications increase your conductivity?
    or maybe having metal stuff being in your flesh? i dunno

    but then again would those explianations i say, be explained away if the intereferences have happened multiple times?

    i gotta be careful with bias here
     
  15. Wormwood

    Wormwood Member

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    If it’s a hallucinatory affect than it’s hallucinatory on a level not even remotely achieved by anything else in our experience. And everybody who has the experience will tell you they know it was real. More real than our present reality, unmistakable.This also line up perfectly with the other evidence, in conjunction with the blind seeing for the first time, people meeting dead relatives, the physical after effects (which you mentioned), accurate information recieved about the future, the consistency of the reports which involve a sense of no time existing, and almost always the fact that communication with occur beings occur telepathically. Strange thing for everybody to be hallucinating. Then indirectly of course, we have the reincarnation evidence, the double blind testing of mediums. But I’m beating a dead horse. And this thread isn’t for point counter-point.
     
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  16. Alex

    Alex New

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    - love it... urban idctionary here we go :)

    top 10 list is a terrible idea... a wonderfully terrible idea :) I mean, maybe it what's lacking with the SOCAD meme. I don't think we need to oversimplify/dumbdown, but who among us would not have enjoyed having a more manageable way to get into this topic when we were starting out.
     
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  17. David Cardill

    David Cardill Member

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    moved to the thread called "Incarnation"
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  18. David Cardill

    David Cardill Member

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    moved to "Incarnation"
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  19. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    Apologies on my misunderstanding of what veridical NDEs are, definitely needs inclusion...

    So in my opinion we've got two points to sort and one we haven't discussed that I think needs some discussion

    1. Ghosts/Hauntings - what kind of evidence do we really need for it to merit inclusion? Does it merit inclusion? Are there examples of hauntings which yielded prophetic information etc
    2. After Effects of NDEs - I don't know enough about the topic to weigh in, but I think the podcasts with PMH Atwater #152 - and Piero Calvi-Parisetti #319 are worth throwing into the mix...

    And finally let's talk about universal cultural symbols such as angels, God, the radiating oneness of existence as written about in religious literature throughout many cultures- which seem to gain an extra significance when seen through the lens of an NDE ??? something like that.
     
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  20. Zach Abraham R

    Zach Abraham R Member

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    I'm already biased on the ghosts/hauntings side as I've personally had an experience. To make a long story short, I was staying in an old country b&b, was haunted, asked around the next day and found out the ghost was most likely the previous owner of the land who'd died of an overdose as an addict of some form of opiate, laudanum etc. and that I was definitely not the first person to report an experience staying there.
     
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