Top Ten NDE Myths

#21
So Myth number 1 is: NDEers meet dead family/friends.
Again I think it's worth providing readers with an alternative view of your claim. Of the 16 patients in Penny's study who are reported to have had an NDE, only Patients 1, 2, 3 & 4 and Patients 6, 7 & 8 had an NDE which was associated with cardiac arrest.

I've listed all persons that each of these 7 patients recall seeing during their NDE, as taken from their full transcripts:

Patient 1 : Dead stepson
Patient 2 : Angels
Patient 3 : Dead aunty
Patient 4 : Unknown woman wearing a straw hat, who was in a rowing boat on a stream.
Patient 6 : Lots of people who he knew, and whom he also knew to be dead, and two people he did not know, but could not later recall any faces or remember who they were.
Patient 7 : Dead father simply standing amongst the nurses in the A&E department (it's not very clear if this was during his NDE, appeared to be more like a DBV to me, and indeed he passed away shortly afterwards).
Patient 8 : Dead mother
 
#22
Again I think it's worth providing readers with an alternative view of your claim. Of the 16 patients in Penny's study who are reported to have had an NDE, only Patients 1, 2, 3 & 4 and Patients 6, 7 & 8 had an NDE which was associated with cardiac arrest.
You didn't explain why this matters? I'm super curious as to why this is a point?

Linda
 
#23
And Penny Sartori characterizes his experience as "a NDE with an OBE element" (page 160), so maybe take it up with her.
The portion of Patient 6's transcript you are referring to, is clearly to do with what he initially describes as the "...later, amazing hallucinations..." portion of his experience where he flies off to Italy and France twice during one evening in a private jet with white leather seats to frenetically organise a business.
 
#24
The portion of Patient 6's transcript you are referring to, is clearly to do with what he initially describes as the "...later, amazing hallucinations..." portion of his experience where he flies off to Italy and France twice during one evening in a private jet with white leather seats to frenetically organise a business.
Are you sure? The statement I quoted was in response to the OBE question ("Did you feel separated from your physical body...?") on page 378 - nothing in that section about his trip to Italy and France. Besides Sartori's impression that he had an OBE must be based on something. Don't you think it's because of his answer to the OBE question?

Anyways, if you have any complaints about her characterization, maybe you should contact her.

Linda
 
#25
You didn't explain why this matters? I'm super curious as to why this is a point?
Well it's an important point to me. I haven't got any idea whether it has any significance for you.

In the absence of detailed monitoring, the determination that the patient went into Cardiac Arrest means that these patients are they only ones where I have any clue as to their brain state. It's not ideal, but at present it's the best I have to go on. So yes, I'm only actually interested in Cardiac Arrest NDE's.
 
#27
Well it's an important point to me. I haven't got any idea whether it has any significance for you.

In the absence of detailed monitoring, the determination that the patient went into Cardiac Arrest means that these patients are they only ones where I have any clue as to their brain state. It's not ideal, but at present it's the best I have to go on. So yes, I'm only actually interested in Cardiac Arrest NDE's.
Okay, but what does that have to do with the OBE observations or with who the subjects saw during their experience?

And I'm interested in all the auditory and visual experiences, not just in an increasingly small, highly selected sample (regardless of the characteristics on which that sample is selected).

Linda
 
#28
I don't need to... I have Patient 6's detailed transcript to read, which you claimed you had read, but it seems, not very well... Lol
I think you may have misunderstood which experience he was talking about. Regardless of what you or I think, though, Penny Sartori is the one who states this is "a NDE with an OBE element".

Linda
 
#29
nd I'm interested in all the auditory and visual experiences, not just in an increasingly small, highly selected sample (regardless of the characteristics on which that sample is selected).
I've got absolutely no problem with what you are interested in studying... It's just not what I'm particularly interested in studying...
 
#30
I think you may have misunderstood which experience he was talking about.
Nope, it's very clear to me... and after all, it's not the first time you've discovered an issue with Penny's study.

So I suppose you might consider from at least two options I can think of, as to which gives you the greater payoff:

a) You stick to your story that I may have misunderstood which experience Patient 6 was talking about. We're the only two on here who appear to have access to the full study, so it's your word against mine.

or

b) You admit you've misunderstood which experience Patient 6 was talking, but get the consolation prize that you've caught Penny out again. Although it's pretty trivial, and weakens your original claim somewhat.
 
#31
Nope, it's very clear to me... and after all, it's not the first time you've discovered an issue with Penny's study.
You've made it clear that you regard it as clear. :)

I don't see it that way.

I don't think it matters much which experience he was talking about, as his observations weren't veridical either way.

Linda
 
#32
I don't think it matters much which experience he was talking about, as his observations weren't veridical either way.
As neither of Patient 6's experiences were NDE OBE's, and his transcript answers contain no indication that he had an NDE OBE, I don't really see your logic in claiming "...his observations weren't veridical...".

If you find any statements from Patient 6 within the transcript which support your claim he had an OBE during his NDE, let me know?
 
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#33
As neither of Patient 6's experiences were NDE OBE's, and his transcript answers contain no indication that he had an NDE OBE, I don't really see your logic in claiming "...his observations weren't veridical...".

If you find any statements from Patient 6 within the transcript which support your claim he had an OBE during his NDE, let me know?
Well, I've read through the transcript several times again carefully. He is pretty clearly (there's that word again :)) referring to the NDE experience of going through a tunnel and of reaching a bright light, and not what he calls his amazing hallucinations about a trip to Italy, when he answers the series of NDE questions and talks about the out-of-body perspective. In the section on veridicality of the OBE's, Sartori includes the description from Patient 6, compares it to what actually happened, and concludes with the statement "there was nothing veridical about his experience" (page 206). I don't see that you have a leg to stand on with your criticism.

Linda
 
#34
Well, I've read through the transcript several times again carefully. He is pretty clearly (there's that word again :)) referring to the NDE experience of going through a tunnel and of reaching a bright light, and not what he calls his amazing hallucinations about a trip to Italy, when he answers the series of NDE questions and talks about the out-of-body perspective. In the section on veridicality of the OBE's, Sartori includes the description from Patient 6, compares it to what actually happened, and concludes with the statement "there was nothing veridical about his experience" (page 206). I don't see that you have a leg to stand on with your criticism.
As neither of Patient 6's experiences which you mention (the "...tunnel and of reaching a bright light..." or his "...amazing hallucinations about a trip..." to France/Italy) are NDE OBE's, and his transcript answers contain absolutely no indication that he had an NDE OBE, I still don't see your logic in claiming "...his observations weren't veridical...".

I'll just repeat again that if you find any statements made by Patient 6 within the transcript which support your claim he had an OBE during his NDE, feel free to post them... Lol... then we can all judge the high standards of evidence that we know you insist upon.
 
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#35
As neither of Patient 6's experiences which you mention (the "...tunnel and of reaching a bright light..." or his "...amazing hallucinations about a trip..." to France/Italy) are NDE OBE's, and his transcript answers contain absolutely no indication that he had an NDE OBE, I still don't see your logic in claiming "...his observations weren't veridical...".

I'll just repeat again that if you find any statements made by Patient 6 within the transcript which support your claim he had an OBE during his NDE, feel free to post them... Lol... then we can all judge the high standards of evidence that we know you insist upon.
They were included in my original post, and they are included in Sartori's analysis (page 206) - he saw himself as clothed and he saw no tubes, whereas during the period of time he was unconscious (when the NDE could have occurred), he was neither clothed nor without tubes (such as those used for his dialysis).

P: Did you feel separated from your physical body...?
10: I could see...me walking or going, proceeding...and yet I was also that person.

P: Did you see yourself clothed?
10: Yeah I think so.
P: Did you see any tubes in your body?
10: No.

Linda
 
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#36
They were included in my original post...
No they weren't, but let me transcribe the relevant parts fully for other readers now.

Patient 6 didn't actually have an OBE during his NDE, doesn't mention anything that resembles an OBE, and in fact clearly denies having such an experience when Penny attempts to clarify the question during interview 1.

In the interview 2 excerpt below, Penny is asking Patient 6 Greyson scale questions, following a discussion between them about both his experiences (the "...tunnel and of reaching a bright light..." or his "...amazing hallucinations about a trip..." to France/Italy).

Patient 6 never mentions any details regarding an NDE OBE during both interviews. The portion of interview 2 which you edited in your previous post, is clearly in reference to his "...tunnel and of reaching a bright light..." and/or his "...amazing hallucinations about a trip..." to France/Italy which he had just been recounting to Penny, just prior to her beginning the Greyson Scale questions. He has no other experience to recount beyond these two.

Interview 1

Penny: Did you feel separated from your physical body? Clearly left it and existed outside it, lost awareness, or neither?
Patient 6: Lost Awareness
Penny: You didn't feel like you were watching yourself from above?
Patient 6: ...no, I don't think so.

Interview 2

Penny: Did you feel separated from your physical body - clearly left the body and existed outside, lost awareness of the body, or nothing like that?
Patient 6: I could see, what was peculiar is I could see ... me walking or going, proceeding (because walking isn't the right way to describe it) and yet I was also that ... that person ... you see?
Penny: Yes. So you could see yourself but you were the person?
Patient 6: Yes, so there was I yet ... it was almost I don't know, I don't know how else to describe it. I was that person but I was also able to see that person externally so I don't know how that lot works. You know, watching a video later perhaps.
Penny: So would you describe it as watching a video of yourself moving along?
Patient 6: Mm, maybe yes ... but it was, it didn't ... didn't ... it had clarity ... yet it didn't have that sort of life thing ... it was a different experience and therefore it wasn't like playing a movie you know an amateur movie, in which case it was very professionally done, convincing.
Penny: Did you see yourself clothed?
Patient 6: Yeah, I think so.
Penny: Did you see any tube in your body?
Patient 6: No.

In your 2nd Myth Opening Post which concerns whether NDE/OBE experiences are veridical, you state that "...There are many examples of descriptions of auditory and visual experiences which are wrong... [ ] ...Five out of six included details which were wrong, or all the details were wrong..." at which point you gave the example of Patient 6 wrongly recalling his NDE OBE. But what is the point of you claiming that his recollection of his NDE OBE was wrong, when it's perfectly clear he never had an NDE OBE to be wrong about?
 
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#37
Penny: Did you feel separated from your physical body - clearly left the body and existed outside, lost awareness of the body, or nothing like that?
Patient 6: I could see, what was peculiar is I could see ... me walking or going, proceeding (because walking isn't the right way to describe it) and yet I was also that ... that person ... you see?
Penny:
Yes. So you could see yourself but you were the person?
Patient 6: Yes, so there was I yet ... it was almost I don't know, I don't know how else to describe it. I was that person but I was also able to see that person externally so I don't know how that lot works. You know, watching a video later perhaps.

But what is the point of you claiming that his recollection of his NDE OBE was wrong, when it's perfectly clear he never had an NDE OBE to be wrong about?
The passages I bolded are the part where he describes having an OBE/NDE, according to Penny Sartori (and I concur). While it is reasonable to discuss whether or not you agree with the NDE researchers as to how to classify the OBE element, it is probably unreasonable to claim that those researchers who are familiar with the process are clearly wrong. People describe the out-of-body sense in a variety of different ways, so you can't get too hung up on whether they use the identical language in every case (otherwise you'll tend to mis-classify cases).

It also isn't unusual for people to remember details in subsequent interviews that they didn't recall in the first and for this to lead to a change in the Greyson scale. For example, in the Pim van Lommel/Merkawah study, 2 of the 37 controls who did not report an NDE at the first interview, reported a core NDE experience at the second. And even in the transcripts of other interviews in Sartori's book, you find information given in the second and third interviews which weren't given in the first.

Linda
 
#38
...The passages I bolded are the part where he I describes him as having an OBE/NDE...
I've just made a tiny alteration within your quote, to more accurately reflect that the passages you have 'bolded' are where you describe Patient 6 as having an NDE OBE. He of course does no such thing within the transcripts.

It seems you have chosen option a). Therefore I hope I've now provided readers with sufficient information, to enable them to make an informed judgement as to whether it's sound for you to rely on Patient 6's experiences, as somehow supporting the claims you make within your Myth number 2 post.
 
#39
Of the 16 NDEers in Sartori's study,
Of the 16 patients in Sartori's study,
And here I thought that paranormal research wasn't allowed to prove anything with nothing but a single study with not-very-many-people in it. Apparently a single underpowered study is allowed to start a "top ten myths" though :eek:

So far 2 well referenced myths....
Not really. Keith Augustine's criticism of NDE phenomenon has an exponentially larger number of sources when he goes through the criticism for non-veridical NDEs. So far this thread is just a disagreement with one single paper.
 
#40
Whether they be called myths, or exaggerations, or cherry-pickings, there is little doubt that forms of publicity and publication in the early days of this phenomenon have led to a skewed version of what is perceived during them, in the round. The books have all tended to emphasize those “star cases” which appear to argue up such items as apparent veridical perception and meeting with supposedly unknown but deceased relatives. Meetings with people who were well and truly alive at the time, or the transformation of operating room staff into symbolic beings, are much less *popular* because they do not fit easily within the narrative that these books and authors were trying to convey. But such cases have always been there, from the early days. Jung “met” his doctor, who told him he had been sent as a representative of earth to fetch him back. I already spoke a while ago of the NDEr who “floated above” her body and witnessed the surgical team lined up in two colors either side of her bed. Who “are” these people in such encounters? The question is perhaps even more pressing for those glimpsed supposedly in the medical environment, and again raises the suspicion that all of this perception is a form of “magical realism.”
 
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