Transgender phenomena and past lives: any thoughts

[David Bailey]

Well being transgender is an incredibly complex thing, transgender people attempt suicide at a rate of between a third and 40% compared to 5% of the general population. Before we start speculating about it and as I've seen in further comments talking about being 'un-pc', let's look at objective research on this subject. I'd recommend you and others check out this link:

I don't think PC speak helps anything - it just muddies and confuses the way people speak. I have nothing against gays and lesbians, and I think society has righted the wrongs which used to be done to them. I have nothing against transgender people, but I am concerned that they might be better helped in other ways. Gays and lesbians didn't need help - they just needed people to stop picking on them! Transgender people are obviously in a different situation.

I knew a man who did change into a woman, and I never felt he was very comfortable in his new role.

The problem nowadays may be that transgender people don't think it is the right of doctors or psychiatrists to suggest other ways to help them - a medical decision has become a political one. Encouraging them into a stable homosexual relationship might be a great way to help at least some transgender people.

David

 

[Roberta]

I don't think PC speak helps anything - it just muddies and confuses the way people speak. I have nothing against gays and lesbians, and I think society has righted the wrongs which used to be done to them. I have nothing against transgender people, but I am concerned that they might be better helped in other ways. Gays and lesbians didn't need help - they just needed people to stop picking on them! Transgender people are obviously in a different situation.

I knew a man who did change into a woman, and I never felt he was very comfortable in his new role.

The problem nowadays may be that transgender people don't think it is the right of doctors or psychiatrists to suggest other ways to help them - a medical decision has become a political one. Encouraging them into a stable homosexual relationship might be a great way to help at least some transgender people.

David

It might be - but did you read the article I posted? A lot of speculation coming from you - do you have anything to back it up or do you just feel like that?

 

[Roberta]

I totally support any ones choice to transition. I just have a problem with rushing into it with younger children who's identity is in a state of flux.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think this is something that happens much or something we need to worry about much. A bigger problem is transgender children/adults who face prejudice and lack an identity or proper support, they have mental health problems and high rates of attempted suicide.

 

[Larry]

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think this is something that happens much or something we need to worry about much. A bigger problem is transgender children/adults who face prejudice and lack an identity or proper support, they have mental health problems and high rates of attempted suicide.

I appreciate where you are coming from. Having raised a gay son I can see some parallels. I imagine that all the progress that's been made with gay rights and acceptance has helped with transgender people stepping forward. There seems to be a major difference though between sexual orientation and some kind of biological anomaly (if it is) which requires such radical intervention surgery drugs etc. I'm bringing this up out of curiosity and it may be inappropriate for me to discuss this in what might appear to be a cavalier manner. I have always been interested in gender which is so basic to all aspects of existence. So I guess I opened this thread wondering how people end up getting in the body of the wrong sex. How can we understand this to help the people with the condition and help ourselves in understanding this deep powerful mystery. Carl Jung explored the nature of gender extensively and had many ideas and theories some of which were influenced by the victorian culture and needed revision and some of which have yet to be tapped.
Anyway, I appreciate your input on this important topic

 

[Larry]

I don't think PC speak helps anything - it just muddies and confuses the way people speak. I have nothing against gays and lesbians, and I think society has righted the wrongs which used to be done to them. I have nothing against transgender people, but I am concerned that they might be better helped in other ways. Gays and lesbians didn't need help - they just needed people to stop picking on them! Transgender people are obviously in a different situation.

I knew a man who did change into a woman, and I never felt he was very comfortable in his new role.

The problem nowadays may be that transgender people don't think it is the right of doctors or psychiatrists to suggest other ways to help them - a medical decision has become a political one. Encouraging them into a stable homosexual relationship might be a great way to help at least some transgender people.

David

I'm starting to think you and I might be a bit behind the times with this. I just talked to a close friend who has been involved in advocating for transgender people. Her close friend who was male to female sat her down and poured her heart out explaining her aversion to her sexuality, how she hated her penis and the relief she felt after she went through the transition. She was still oriented toward women and there for a lesbian. Apparently sexual orientation is another category altogather. I do agree with you that there should be some openess in how learn to understand this and not let politics alone determine what we think however I think we should keep in mind how gay people were subjected to harsh medical and psychological interventions and how harmful that was.

 

[David Bailey]

It might be - but did you read the article I posted? A lot of speculation coming from you - do you have anything to back it up or do you just feel like that?

Well the article seemed to be itself rather speculative. My only direct experience was in connection with a colleague at work, who changed sex.

Her close friend who was male to female sat her down and poured her heart out explaining her aversion to her sexuality, how she hated her penis and the relief she felt after she went through the transition

Don't you feel someone like this needs psychiatric help first? I once read of a case of a woman who had a similar revulsion to her leg (honestly).

I suppose I feel that political activists shouldn't really be involved in this problem. I mean, to revert to the original intention of this thread, it is possible that past life regression would be beneficial, and the person would end up intact in mind and body!

David

 

[Red]

I don't think PC speak helps anything - it just muddies and confuses the way people speak. I have nothing against gays and lesbians, and I think society has righted the wrongs which used to be done to them. I have nothing against transgender people, but I am concerned that they might be better helped in other ways. Gays and lesbians didn't need help - they just needed people to stop picking on them! Transgender people are obviously in a different situation.

I knew a man who did change into a woman, and I never felt he was very comfortable in his new role.

The problem nowadays may be that transgender people don't think it is the right of doctors or psychiatrists to suggest other ways to help them - a medical decision has become a political one. Encouraging them into a stable homosexual relationship might be a great way to help at least some transgender people.

David

I think David should give himself a warning and take a break from the thread to think about his various transgressions!! (no pun intended) ;)

 

[Sciborg_S_Patel]

I have a problem with putting a 14 year old through hormones and surgeries at a time when they are just forming their identity when we know so little about gender. Young children currently are subjected to images of fluid social- sexual - gender fads that are inundating the medias at a time when they are trying to figure out who the hell they are. Its not like getting a nose ring or a tattoo

Oh I don't think any children should be necessarily getting surgeries, though its always possible certain cases will arise.

Hormones OTOH - I think it'll depend on each case. Puberty blockers, from what I understand, are reversible. My understanding is not even every transgendered person gets the operation - the decision is only there after entrance to adulthood.

 

[Roberta]

Well the article seemed to be itself rather speculative. My only direct experience was in connection with a colleague at work, who changed sex.

Don't you feel someone like this needs psychiatric help first? I once read of a case of a woman who had a similar revulsion to her leg (honestly).

I suppose I feel that political activists shouldn't really be involved in this problem. I mean, to revert to the original intention of this thread, it is possible that past life regression would be beneficial, and the person would end up intact in mind and body!

David

The article drew conclusions from the research the author could find - which you'd know if you'd read the article ;).

 

[David Bailey]

This thread is a wonderful example of PC in action. Nobody should have a view about something like this except the experts - who may well be self selecting in one way or another. I think ordinary people (which includes myself in this context) should have a say about changes in society like this. We only have to look back to previous ages to see how 'experts' lead people into all sorts of unfortunate directions - particularly in relation to sex. See for example:

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/s/sex-and-sexuality-19th-century/

Throughout, however, the public discussion of sexual matters was characterised by absence of plain speaking, with consequent ignorance, embarrassment and fear.

We of all people should be cautious about the idea that experts know best! We have medical experts galore telling us that NDE's are impossible or meaningless, but do we accept their word for it? No we try to expose their flawed and blinkered thinking.

David

 

[Doppelgänger]

Does anyone have any thoughts or information about the transgender phenomena and how it might relate to any of the topics we discuss here on the forum(past lives. . .)? I have a friend with a 14 year old daughter who feels shes in the”wrong” body and wants to do the hormones and surgeries etc. Whats interesting to me was her aversion to anything feminine from a very young age(2 or 3). She hated dolls, anything pink, any sort of girly activity or object. She has loving accepting parents and grew up in an open liberal west coast environment. I had the thought of some past life trauma somehow related to gender leaking in.
Any ideas ?

edit: In the Stevenson and tucker research there is mention of how a trauma around death can somehow cause a memory of the prior life to bleed into the present incarnation as well as scaring, birthmarks, irrational preferences etc.
I am not one who always looks for some new age metaphysical explanation for everyday occurences but something about this girls aversion to anything feminine at such a young age got my attention and made my wonder if there was some connection.

Can you describe what is "feminine"? I hated dolls and anything pink and "girlie" activities as a girl. I was called a tomboy. But I do not believe that makes me a "man." I think children can like what they like, but it does not mean they are the opposite sex.

Does anyone else remember "Free to be You and Me?" from the seventies? Boys can like "girl" stuff and girls can like "boy" stuff. We are not a different species. This sounds like old sexism, as in women can't do programming and men can't like ballet.

I am very wary of the transing of children due to their likes and dislikes. It's very tied to culture.

I'm surprised this is considered "progressive" since countries like Iran approve "sex changes" for gays and lesbians and those who don't fit the binary of "feminine" and "masculine."

 

[Roberta]

This thread is a wonderful example of PC in action. Nobody should have a view about something like this except the experts - who may well be self selecting in one way or another. I think ordinary people (which includes myself in this context) should have a say about changes in society like this. We only have to look back to previous ages to see how 'experts' lead people into all sorts of unfortunate directions - particularly in relation to sex. See for example:

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/s/sex-and-sexuality-19th-century/



We of all people should be cautious about the idea that experts know best! We have medical experts galore telling us that NDE's are impossible or meaningless, but do we accept their word for it? No we try to expose their flawed and blinkered thinking.

David

I don't know what 'pc in action' means - it seems like it's what you say when people say things you disagree with or challenge you. I agree we shouldn't just blindly listen to experts, but objective research holds more weight then one person you know or I know. Let's have some nuance and humility on this issue .

 

[Doppelgänger]

Oh I don't think any children should be necessarily getting surgeries, though its always possible certain cases will arise.

Hormones OTOH - I think it'll depend on each case. Puberty blockers, from what I understand, are reversible. My understanding is not even every transgendered person gets the operation - the decision is only there after entrance to adulthood.

"Puberty blockers" are stuff like Lupron -- now prescribed off-label to block puberty -- which has many side effects, as it was originally a drug for cancer. It can render the patient sterile, which is, in my opinion, a big deal. And it can't be reversed.

 

[David Bailey]

I don't know what 'pc in action' means - it seems like it's what you say when people say things you disagree with or challenge you. I agree we shouldn't just blindly listen to experts, but objective research holds more weight then one person you know or I know. Let's have some nuance and humility on this issue .

OK but ask yourself for a moment how research could split up the causes of suicide into such categories. Read Oliver Sacks book about some of the many strange conceptions that can consume people. If someone hates a part of their body, I think the first recourse should be psychiatry. If we think about these people as troubled individuals, rather than people with a right to this or that, we might give them a better future.

I mean, one way to read your link, is that people who have changed sex are a pretty unhappy lot - which was my experience with my colleague. In other words, it isn't as though sexual reassignment is very effective - otherwise they would not be committing suicide afterwards. It is easy to blame some residual prejudice in society for their subsequent problems, but shouldn't that high suicide rate suggest that some less drastic treatment might be more beneficial?

David

 

[Doppelgänger]

https://sexandgenderintro.com/

 

[Roberta]

OK but ask yourself for a moment how research could split up the causes of suicide into such categories. Read Oliver Sacks book about some of the many strange conceptions that can consume people. If someone hates a part of their body, I think the first recourse should be psychiatry. If we think about these people as troubled individuals, rather than people with a right to this or that, we might give them a better future.

I mean, one way to read your link, is that people who have changed sex are a pretty unhappy lot - which was my experience with my colleague. In other words, it isn't as though sexual reassignment is very effective - otherwise they would not be committing suicide afterwards. It is easy to blame some residual prejudice in society for their subsequent problems, but shouldn't that high suicide rate suggest that some less drastic treatment might be more beneficial?

David

The link found that gender reassignment reduced suicidal rates. I'm not pretending that I have the answers on this issue, it's a complex issue but being pc or whatever isn't what's causing it. Transgender people face issues and discrimination that few other groups do.

 

[Doppelgänger]

The link found that gender reassignment reduced suicidal rates. I'm not pretending that I have the answers on this issue, it's a complex issue but being pc or whatever isn't what's causing it. Transgender people face issues and discrimination that few other groups do.

There is another study that says transitioning increased suicide rates after (I think five years?) some time.

Why do you think trans people face more discrimination and issues compared to other minorities?

If you cut out the rates trans people of color who work in prostitution (a rate that trans ideology uses), then there is no higher rates of murder compared to the general population. Women are murdered at higher rates than trans people.

As in, white trans people are murdered less than your run-of-the-mill female. Trans people are murdered at the same rate as women when they work in the sex trade.

Today, most trans women in the West work in IT (and many of them are ex-military -- make of that what you will) They are very safe.

Where are the statistics that trans are being murdered for being trans??

Also, where is trans-men in all of this? FTMs? It's always about transwomen... I wonder why...?

 

[David Bailey]

There is another study that says transitioning increased suicide rates after (I think five years?) some time.

Why do you think trans people face more discrimination and issues compared to other minorities?

If you cut out the rates trans people of color who work in prostitution (a rate that trans ideology uses), then there is no higher rates of murder compared to the general population. Women are murdered at higher rates than trans people.

As in, white trans people are murdered less than your run-of-the-mill female. Trans people are murdered at the same rate as women when they work in the sex trade.

Today, most trans women in the West work in IT (and many of them are ex-military -- make of that what you will) They are very safe.

Where are the statistics that trans are being murdered for being trans??

Also, where is trans-men in all of this? FTMs? It's always about transwomen... I wonder why...?

Right - my suspicion, is that at least FTM's have mental problems that aren't resolved by changing sex. Furthermore, after they have changed sex, finding a partner is inevitably going to be much harder. Straight men are far less likely to accept an FTM, and may get upset if this fact is concealed for a while. It isn't even clear if a gay man would wish to go with an FTM.

I felt that my colleague was troubled before and after the transition. Fortunately he had other things that occupied his mind, so he didn't commit suicide.

David

 

[Sciborg_S_Patel]

"Puberty blockers" are stuff like Lupron -- now prescribed off-label to block puberty -- which has many side effects, as it was originally a drug for cancer. It can render the patient sterile, which is, in my opinion, a big deal. And it can't be reversed.

Looking it up:

PBS: When Transgender Kids Transition, Medical Risks are Both Known and Unknown

This mention a variety of risks. However NPR's article makes a possible clarification:

Spack, however, is quick to point out that there is no risk of infertility from the hormone-blocking treatment alone. Infertility only comes when the hormone-blocking treatment is paired with Stage 2, the use of opposite-sex hormones. And so, Spack says, hormone blockers should really be seen simply as a treatment that gives families more time to think about what to do.

I think Spack might be underestimating the risks of blockers alone given the first article.

One thing for sure is it's unfortunate parapsychology has been so undermined as past life regression and reincarnation research might help - not necessarily to give us a clearer consensual understanding but at the least some potential comfort and assistance in figuring out if the issue is gender dysmorphia or genuine transgenderism for each individual.

Right - my suspicion, is that at least FTM's have mental problems that aren't resolved by changing sex. Furthermore, after they have changed sex, finding a partner is inevitably going to be much harder. Straight men are far less likely to accept an FTM, and may get upset if this fact is concealed for a while. It isn't even clear if a gay man would wish to go with an FTM.

I felt that my colleague was troubled before and after the transition. Fortunately he had other things that occupied his mind, so he didn't commit suicide.

David

It seems to me that a person who is experiencing that they are in the wrong body has bigger problems than finding a partner? Or at the least having to hide this part of themselves isn't going to be an easy thing for them and will effect the relationship.

Ultimately for adults I think, with some reasonable safeguards, Libertarian principles are right on this - real freedom is the freedom to make mistakes. Even catastrophic ones.

 

[David Bailey]

It seems to me that a person who is experiencing that they are in the wrong body has bigger problems than finding a partner? Or at the least having to hide this part of themselves isn't going to be an easy thing for them and will effect the relationship.

Well people in strong relationships have better mental health. I mean, ask yourself, would you have had a relationship with a man who had transitioned to be a woman?

Ultimately for adults I think, with some reasonable safeguards, Libertarian principles are right on this - real freedom is the freedom to make mistakes. Even catastrophic ones.

The problem, I feel, is that certain activist groups can force an agenda, and try to squash other points of view using PC. I mean, the BBC was actually discussing transgender issues in small children recently. I'll bet a lot of parents find that uncomfortable, and with good reason, but the activists get heard, and the concerned parents probably don't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36141165

I mean, I suppose I see transgender people as vulnerable - not least to the zealots that don't want to know about the potential drawbacks.

David