Trump Consciousness

Thanks K9 - I had a feeling he did say that, but I would have found it hard to locate the clip.

OK, Silence, what do you do with your chosen subject (don't move to something else, nobody here has infinite patience).

David
K9 missed the point David and so have you.

Trump is discrediting the scientific and medical community. He's actively trying to discredit them. What has he suggested as a replacement authority in his role as leader of the free world? Himself. The autocrat who chooses narratives not based on evidence or science but on what suits his political whim. You've made my point.

As for Fauci I was aware of his comments. Remember a few things that I shouldn't have to remind you of. First, Trump did not only attempt to discredit Fauci but the entire academic and scientific establishment. Second, science isn't soothsaying as you well know. It evolves as it follows evidence. COVID is a novel virus so it's no surprise it's open to cherry picking should we seek to discredit it.

Your turn.
 
Barr’s reluctance to go after them should tell you all you need to know... What’s the crime?
Are you kidding?

Biden's son was touting for Ukrainian officials to get political favours off his dad - the then VP - in return for a chunk of money that was to be split between them. Remember that neither Biden nor his son have actually denied the emails were real, or that the data did not come from Hunter's laptop.

I seriously wonder if Trump wins, if the two of them will do a bunk to some remote part of the world on Nov 4.

David
 
Biden's son was touting for Ukrainian officials to get political favours off his dad - the then VP - in return for a chunk of money that was to be split between them.
You know it’s has already been investigated don’t you? AG Barr won’t go near it, apparently so I’m in good company.

I seriously wonder if Trump wins, if the two of them will do a bunk to some remote part of the world on Nov 4.
Just like Hillary had too? Oh, hang on...
 
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Trump is discrediting the scientific and medical community. He's actively trying to discredit them.
Hahaha what ignorance is on display here. The so called "scientific and medical community" that you are selectively chosing (as opposed to the actual wider community that is being censored by social media (leftists) and ignore by the presstitutes (mainstream media - leftists), have consistently discredited themselves! They don't need Trumps help as they are doing a bang up job themselves.

You just refuse to see it, Silence. Or, you see it, know it and yet are so "in the tank" that you would rather pretend otherwise because you think that helps the agenda you are suited too - leftism (which = "deathism").
 
Hahaha what ignorance is on display here. The so called "scientific and medical community" that you are selectively chosing (as opposed to the actual wider community that is being censored by social media (leftists) and ignore by the presstitutes (mainstream media - leftists), have consistently discredited themselves! They don't need Trumps help as they are doing a bang up job themselves.

You just refuse to see it, Silence. Or, you see it, know it and yet are so "in the tank" that you would rather pretend otherwise because you think that helps the agenda you are suited too - leftism (which = "deathism").
Try to stay with me Chester and don't fall into an emotional bluster before you consider what I've said (which you've now already done once).

The leader of the free world has discredited his scientific and medical advisors. These are men and women who work for him in his role of serving the American people (and by some proxy the rest of the free world). He has a responsibility to staff these positions with the best and brightest. Again, it's part of the job description.

If Fauci and the rest of his current advisors are all frauds then he should can them and replace them with capable people. He hasn't done that. He's feigned the prospect of replacing Fauci as not being worth the effort. This from a POTUS who has fired more staff than any in memory. So what is really going on here?

If Trump is right about Fauci and Co then he has failed in his duty to replace these quacks and slaves to the elite corporate interests. He's not draining the swamp.

But we know this isn't the case. Sure you and every crackpot on the internet thinks they've solved this and buy into this conspiracy theory plandemic nonsense but no serious public policy or scientific thinkers support you.

No, it's simpler than that. Trump doesn't like what COVID has done to his legacy, to the roaring economy he inherited and further stoked ( to his credit!). He's wanted this thing to go away from the start. So he's doing everything possible to diminish what the scientific and medical community had to say. Not to reform it mind you, but to control the message. The autocrat.

It's dangerous because it erodes truth. Again, if he had real ground to stand on with his discrediting of his advisors, he'd replace them. He'd made that case to thinking Americans, he'd have the support of science. It's what a leader should do if, again, he were right about Fauci and Co.
 
Biden's son was touting for Ukrainian officials to get political favours off his dad - the then VP - in return for a chunk of money that was to be split between them.
It will take years to sort out and document the millions of dollars Joe Biden received in bribes from companies in Ukraine, China, Russia, et al.

I'm still waiting on Trump to prosecute Hillary and Biden for their mountain of crimes regarding Uranium One and the tens of thousands of innocent people they killed in Libya.

They are just now beginning to scratch the surface on Biden's crimes...

https://www.zerohedge.com/political...er-was-livid-over-5mm-side-deal-chinese-texts

CEFC refers to CEFC China Energy, a PLA-linked company which was paying Hunter $850,00 per year according to an email from Biden business associate James Gilliar to Bobulinksi - which is also the source of the "10 held by H for the big guy" email.

Emails obtained by the New York Post show that Hunter "pursued lucrative deals involving China’s largest private energy company — including one that he said would be “interesting for me and my family.”" according to the report.
Joe Biden covering up his son raping children (his Granddaughter) is nothing compared to their mountain of international corruption crimes.
 
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K9 missed the point David and so have you.

Trump is discrediting the scientific and medical community. He's actively trying to discredit them. What has he suggested as a replacement authority in his role as leader of the free world? Himself. The autocrat who chooses narratives not based on evidence or science but on what suits his political whim. You've made my point.

As for Fauci I was aware of his comments. Remember a few things that I shouldn't have to remind you of. First, Trump did not only attempt to discredit Fauci but the entire academic and scientific establishment. Second, science isn't soothsaying as you well know. It evolves as it follows evidence. COVID is a novel virus so it's no surprise it's open to cherry picking should we seek to discredit it.

Your turn.
Right now I think you had listened to the MSM and actually believed that Trump misquoted him or quoted him out of context. Therefore you put up that video to 'prove' it. Unfortunately when K9 came up with the original video you decided to try to side-step.

My contention is that this happens over and over with what you post and with much anti-Trump propaganda. When you really go into one issue, you find it isn't quite the way it is portrayed. Likewise, whenever you read about how bad Trump is, you read a great swathe of vague accusations - rather like your earlier post - and folk are supposed to say "Gee how can we have such a man as president!" they aren't meant to ask for anything specific.

When I took on my role as moderator, I decided that I would only ban someone who was arguing with me with great reluctance. That holds me back (just about) from banning you until after the election is over, because I don't want discussion here to descend into just vague sounding off.

Surely to the extent that Fauci did give one set of advice and then change his mind, I certainly do not see why the President should not comment on that.

You talk about the "medical community" as if they were pure and without sin, even though you know (I assume) that many of them get huge sums of money from Big Pharma to bend to their will. Perhaps this list of fines imposed on Big Pharma will clarify that aspect for you a little:

https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma

You also talk as if they spoke with one voice, but if you have followed the Coronavirus thread you must know that many medical doctors and researchers are completely opposed to lockdown policies - including the use of masks.

David
 
Right now I think you had listened to the MSM and actually believed that Trump misquoted him or quoted him out of context. Therefore you put up that video to 'prove' it. Unfortunately when K9 came up with the original video you decided to try to side-step.
There's no side step here David, you simply aren't getting the point. Perhaps that's my fault as a communicator or perhaps its your own personal limitation. We'll see as I'll try again.

When I took on my role as moderator, I decided that I would only ban someone who was arguing with me with great reluctance. That holds me back (just about) from banning you until after the election is over, because I don't want discussion here to descend into just vague sounding off.
Whatever. This is a favorite trick of yours when you confuse your role with moderator with your own personal bias on an issue. Feel free to ban me, but don't confuse that action with anything noble. You just don't like or agree with what I have to say. Its certainly not because I've treated anyone differently then I myself have been treated.

Surely to the extent that Fauci did give one set of advice and then change his mind, I certainly do not see why the President should not comment on that.

You talk about the "medical community" as if they were pure and without sin, even though you know (I assume) that many of them get huge sums of money from Big Pharma to bend to their will. Perhaps this list of fines imposed on Big Pharma will clarify that aspect for you a little:

https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/bigpharma

You also talk as if they spoke with one voice, but if you have followed the Coronavirus thread you must know that many medical doctors and researchers are completely opposed to lockdown policies - including the use of masks.
This is the crux of what you are missing.

I started this discussion when you asked me: "What exactly is he doing to wreck democracy - let's try to nail that point."

My purpose in citing the Fauci and Co comments was to highlight the erosion of public trust in experts, in science, and in truth. Into that vacuum, Trump has inserted himself as the authority. A huge portion of his base simply takes his word on any and every issue. That's anti-democratic to my view and certainly autocratic leaning. I think its a problem.

When Trump decided that Fauci and Co were "idiots" he should have removed them from their positions and brought forth actual experts with real expertise; demonstrable expertise. But he hasn't done that. Why? He's fired/hired more personnel as POTUS than any other I'm aware of.

So, where we stand at present on COVID is with a POTUS who is telling us that his top advisors are idiots. He and the idiots on his staff give conflicting views on COVID. The public then has to decide which voice(s) to trust. Those trusting Trump tend to use all the conspiratorial ammo such as what you've provided as justification. Those trusting Fauci and Co are buying into mainstream science (right or wrong). Regardless of who's right, there is an erosion of trust.

My singular point is that I see that as problematic and a threat to democracy.
 
A little bit of thread drift, but I just wanted to add this briefly, because I sense that I'm not alone in this mindset.

I think it's now a waste of time trying to have reasonable discussion with anyone regarding COVID. All I see are the same talking points, the same arguments, the same points of view. The time for talking is over. Action is required. Let the chips fall where they may, short of inhuman treatment of others.

It's quite simple now. There are two sides and people have already made their minds up and will defend both with their life force. When this all ends, is open, but I believe that only blood and tears lie ahead. Lots of it unfortunately. Reality itself seems to be in flux. Points of reference are constantly changing. We shall be forced into situations with others whom we do not want any quarrel with, but we will be powerless to avoid it, as it just seems to be the limiting nature of this reality.

As for me, I'm focusing on my loved ones. That's all I care about, truly. I don't care about anything else. I'm sick and tired of hearing about identity politics and the latest outrage over minutiae, or historical ills, or gender, or whatever it bloody is. Let all of these kind of people go crazy. Other people will stop caring after a while anyway. It is their choice and free will to be eternal victims of the most ridiculous sort, and the universe will react accordingly.

I shall deal with other beings on STRICTLY an individual basis. I shall be as human to others as I can muster. If they are human to me, I shall be human to them. If they are animal to me, I shall be animal back to them. I have no patience anymore for people's problems or issues. I will not be holding a space for them to grow or learn, or for me to put myself in their shoes and do their work for them. Bad behaviour will not be tolerated.
 
Try to stay with me Chester and don't fall into an emotional bluster before you consider what I've said (which you've now already done once).

The leader of the free world has discredited his scientific and medical advisors. These are men and women who work for him in his role of serving the American people (and by some proxy the rest of the free world). He has a responsibility to staff these positions with the best and brightest. Again, it's part of the job description.

If Fauci and the rest of his current advisors are all frauds then he should can them and replace them with capable people. He hasn't done that. He's feigned the prospect of replacing Fauci as not being worth the effort. This from a POTUS who has fired more staff than any in memory. So what is really going on here?

If Trump is right about Fauci and Co then he has failed in his duty to replace these quacks and slaves to the elite corporate interests. He's not draining the swamp.

But we know this isn't the case. Sure you and every crackpot on the internet thinks they've solved this and buy into this conspiracy theory plandemic nonsense but no serious public policy or scientific thinkers support you.

No, it's simpler than that. Trump doesn't like what COVID has done to his legacy, to the roaring economy he inherited and further stoked ( to his credit!). He's wanted this thing to go away from the start. So he's doing everything possible to diminish what the scientific and medical community had to say. Not to reform it mind you, but to control the message. The autocrat.

It's dangerous because it erodes truth. Again, if he had real ground to stand on with his discrediting of his advisors, he'd replace them. He'd made that case to thinking Americans, he'd have the support of science. It's what a leader should do if, again, he were right about Fauci and Co.
Try and be honest, Silence and don’t continue to follow your pattern of taking others words and re-interpreting them to what you wish others to think they say and to use the reinterpretation to then try and make a point, which is pointless.

That you continue to evade the key question I have for you, which, by the way, is critically related to this thread as metaphysical cosmological world view is at the core of the answer in that you must deal with consciousness… this question fits perfectly in this thread. It isn’t a stretch to conclude you are aware your honest answer will lead to further erosion of any ancillary points you keep trying to make… but I am only drawing inference and there’s a small percentage my provisional conclusion could be wrong.

There’s no need to keep playing the “your posts are emotional” card because it is irrelevant relative to the points made in my posts. In addition, if you have no emotion yourself, then I feel for you as well as anyone who loves you… and that is said from my heart and yes, there’s emotion there. Emotions are an essential aspect of being a whole human being that has incarnated on Earth and/or in the 5 sense reality. Emotions, according to the theosophists among others, are said to be associated with the astral realm. Have you ever dreamed, Silence? If so, you experienced the astral. If so, you are experiencing your emotional body.


The leader of the free world has discredited his scientific and medical advisors.
This is a false statement. It would be true if you added the word ‘some’ after the word ‘discredited’ and before the word ‘his.’ In addition, there are a plethora of other equally qualified (and, in my opinion, more qualified) scientific and medical experts who disagree with Fauci and on can fairly judge for themselves if that discredits their opinions. Note, for example, Fauci is a career administrator and has a track record of failure and is linked with playing a key role in the funding of the Woohan lab and is linked to being all too cozy with Baal Gates and Big Pharma. Fauci, as an example, does a far better job discrediting himself with his flip-flops, photos of him at public events sitting next to others (like a recent baseball game) with his mask pulled down while smiling as if he runs the world.

The media doesn’t expose this which discredits the media.

You make false statements which discredits yourself.

You quote posts then re-interpret them in ways that are not accurate and then attempt to make a point that can only apply to your re-interpretation and this discredits yourself.


If Fauci and the rest of his current advisors are all frauds then he should can them and replace them with capable people. He hasn't done that. He's feigned the prospect of replacing Fauci as not being worth the effort. This from a POTUS who has fired more staff than any in memory. So what is really going on here?
The media’s handling of all things related to the COVID-19(84) planscamDEMic has emulated fraudulent behavior. It can be viewed as fraudulent when you’re expected to be fair and cover information from all qualified views and present facts regardless of what those facts imply. The mainstream media as well as the powerful social media platforms do not do this. That is fraudulent behavior most would agree.

Critical thinking, reasonably intelligent, fair minded individuals see this. Even those who lean left. With regards to those who lean left, some are ethically bankrupt. They know the media lies, they know social media is manipulative and holds bias and yet they not only condone it, they play along with. Why? Because they are willing to do anything (including turning their back on or, in some cases ala the Michigan Governor, overlording that which truly harms people far more than the actual harm directly caused by whatever this ‘illness’ is).


… then he should can them and replace them with capable people.
and

If Trump is right about Fauci and Co then he has failed in his duty to replace these quacks and slaves to the elite corporate interests. He's not draining the swamp.
Easy –

First… Trump makes the final calls for his administration. Fauci is nothing but one of the ‘advisors.’ He doesn’t have to replace Fauci because Fauci has no power. But also, what you fail to state and because you have left this out destroys your point – Trump has made Dr. Scott Atlas his advisor and perhaps the advisor he trusts the most. The media, social media manipulation and rival “experts” have done their best to discredit him.

So the bottom line reality, Silence, is that each of us, you included, must act upon or personal responsibility to decide for ourselves what we trust and don’t trust as well as what we can conclude from our own capacity to think for ourselves and then act upon our provisional conclusions.

One thing I think is different about you, Silence, than myself is that you seem to wish that a certain set of conclusions be imposed upon the rest of us whereas I defend your right to draw your own conclusions and act upon them freely. While I do not support out of control Orwellian governmental overreach.

Second - it is called ‘politics’… timing is everything. And note: if/when Trump is re-elected, there will, without doubt, be additional changes in many of these positions – here’s an example –

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fbi-director-christopher-wray-will-be-removed-reelection


Sure you and every crackpot on the internet thinks they've solved this and buy into this conspiracy theory plandemic nonsense but no serious public policy or scientific thinkers support you.
Here you resort to ad hominem and lying and thus no response other than pointing out it is called for.


Trump doesn't like what COVID has done to his legacy, to the roaring economy he inherited and further stoked ( to his credit!).
You almost made a fully true statement. If you could be fair, the statement would read –

“Trump doesn't like what COVID has done to the people of America, to the roaring economy he inherited and further stoked ( to his credit!).”

If Trump’s legacy matters to him, and at some level of his being, it likely does, the importance of that is so far down the list of what is actually important to him, that only someone who thinks they can stir emotions in another where that other might fall on their sword, is used as a point to make… as you did.


He's wanted this thing to go away from the start. So he's doing everything possible to diminish what the scientific and medical community had to say. Not to reform it mind you, but to control the message. The autocrat.
In my opinion, a statement like this attempts to isolate a single component within a complex picture, reform the actual truth (which includes scientific and medical community members who disagree with the mainstream narrative leftists, the mainstream media, social media manipulators and in the tank politicians) into an absolute (as if the opponents do not exist – haha) and then you build on your falsely projected reality that Trump hasn’t reformed “the scientific and medical community” as if that could be done in such a short time by a single man, albeit a US President. Of course he does his best to “message” in whatever way he believes is best to deliver, being the US President. But what politician and/or surrogate (like the mainstream media and social media manipulators happen to be) do not strive to achieve maximum effect of their messaging?

Truly, Silence… if any discrediting is going on here, it is yourself discrediting yourself as a reasonable, intelligent, fair minded human being.


t's dangerous because it erodes truth. Again, if he had real ground to stand on with his discrediting of his advisors, he'd replace them. He'd made that case to thinking Americans, he'd have the support of science. It's what a leader should do if, again, he were right about Fauci and Co.
All of your final paragraph has been fully well addressed.
 
I started this discussion when you asked me: "What exactly is he doing to wreck democracy - let's try to nail that point."

My purpose in citing the Fauci and Co comments was to highlight the erosion of public trust in experts, in science, and in truth. Into that vacuum, Trump has inserted himself as the authority. A huge portion of his base simply takes his word on any and every issue. That's anti-democratic to my view and certainly autocratic leaning. I think its a problem.
Democracy has nothing to do with non-elected officials. Trump can fire people who are non-elected officials/administrators within the executive branch jurisdiction. As for advisors, he can consider their advice. Advisors who he may, in some part, maybe in large part, disagree with and who go on the "in the tank" mainstream media and social media manipulated outlets and make flip-flop comments and other comments which can be perceived as "discrediting" the President's views, statements and actions, how then can there be any "wrong" in Trump publicly doing the same?

In addition, you keep making a point with regards to why hasn't he removed them, that point has been addressed in my previous post. You either get it, or you don't. Or, you do, but feign otherwise.

My singular point is that I see that as problematic and a threat to democracy.
Bureaucrats aren't elected, Silence... stop conflating democracy with the vast bureaucracy that has been formed over decades of government structural buildup. You are surely smart enough to know dismantlement of such with the wave of a magic wand is fantasy.
 
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A little bit of thread drift, but I just wanted to add this briefly, because I sense that I'm not alone in this mindset.

I think it's now a waste of time trying to have reasonable discussion with anyone regarding COVID. All I see are the same talking points, the same arguments, the same points of view. The time for talking is over. Action is required. Let the chips fall where they may, short of inhuman treatment of others.

It's quite simple now. There are two sides and people have already made their minds up and will defend both with their life force. When this all ends, is open, but I believe that only blood and tears lie ahead. Lots of it unfortunately. Reality itself seems to be in flux. Points of reference are constantly changing. We shall be forced into situations with others whom we do not want any quarrel with, but we will be powerless to avoid it, as it just seems to be the limiting nature of this reality.

As for me, I'm focusing on my loved ones. That's all I care about, truly. I don't care about anything else. I'm sick and tired of hearing about identity politics and the latest outrage over minutiae, or historical ills, or gender, or whatever it bloody is. Let all of these kind of people go crazy. Other people will stop caring after a while anyway. It is their choice and free will to be eternal victims of the most ridiculous sort, and the universe will react accordingly.

I shall deal with other beings on STRICTLY an individual basis. I shall be as human to others as I can muster. If they are human to me, I shall be human to them. If they are animal to me, I shall be animal back to them. I have no patience anymore for people's problems or issues. I will not be holding a space for them to grow or learn, or for me to put myself in their shoes and do their work for them. Bad behaviour will not be tolerated.
I should take this advice... I really should... I actually do with a few single exceptions here on this forum and a few others. But I should become strict about this. Thanks for the post, diverdown.
 
I think it's now a waste of time trying to have reasonable discussion with anyone regarding COVID. All I see are the same talking points, the same arguments, the same points of view. The time for talking is over.
There does seem to be a growing list of topics that cannot be rationally discussed. But maybe its also a recognition that many forums on the internet do NOT support rational discourse. Further that perhaps most people are challenged to discuss important topics rationally.

I think of the PSI skeptics who believe they are critical thinkers while ignoring evidence that does not support their worldview and applying ad hominem insult of 'WU believers" instead of actually demonstrating reasoning.

Sometimes I feel the temptation to join Jim in propaganda spamming instead of reflecting on evidence.

I am trying to teach my kids to consider multiple perspectives and to question the basis of their beliefs and also to recognize propaganda techniques.
 
Chester, thanks for the responses. I do, whether it seems so or not, appreciate this dialogue as frustrating as it likely is for everyone involved.

Again, the point I raised which spawned this most recent series of posts is pretty narrow for me. I believe the Trump presidency has been the most divisive of the last 50 years (my generally conscious memory of our administrations). I see Trump as a prime actor in this divisiveness but fully concede there are opposing actors who have contributed as well. I'd like to keep the discussion on Trump, however, as that's where my interest lies.

While it was simply the divisiveness that was my concern, that has now morphed into a fear at a deeper level. A fear that our democracy is being eroded. As I stated previously, I believe the U.S. democracy is built largely on public trust, a health respect for truth, and shared facts. Those things feel weaker today than they've been in 50 years.

My Fauci example was to illustrate this point. Whether Fauci is deserving of criticism or not isn't the point I was trying to illuminate. Its the unmooring that comes with discrediting consensus reality and replacing it with a choice between political ideologies. That feels very dangerous to me.

Our President's job is to protect the union. So, again, I see it as Trump's job to do his level best to create common, shared truths from which he can actual govern; not to create fractious groups of voting blocks. Why hasn't he assembled a very visible, transparent blue ribbon panel of experts of his choosing to address the COVID topic? What he provides us as support for his approach to COVID is nothing more than his own words (i.e., authority) and a random sampling of tweets.

Again, his followers trust him. That's noble and a heavy responsibility. But my concern is that they just trust him at his word. That's autocratic; or at least autocratically leaning. And dangerous.

It doesn't matter to me where you land on the COVID topic. Its more about the feeling that we're unmoored here. That we don't seem to be working towards a common, over-arching solution and our President seems to be fueling this division.
 
Sometimes I feel the temptation to join Jim in propaganda spamming instead of reflecting on evidence.
At the risk of missing the point of your post (i.e., that perhaps you see me as part of the problem), I'll double down on that risk by saying how troubling I've found Jim's constant propaganda campaign. It has seemed so utterly out of character for him from the start, yet he's grown more and more vociferous. Almost sycophantic in my view. Scary.
 
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