TRUTH of near death experiences

#21
The opening post here is a story in the Daily Mail. The topic of NDEs and related topics pops up quite frequently there, for example the work of Penny Sartori was covered, among others. I would caution against regarding this latest article as superseding all previous coverage, one really needs to look at the topic in its broader sense, consider a more diverse range of sources and views than this single article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...counts-intensive-care-nurse-astonish-you.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oungsters-young-six-months-lucid-visions.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...o-mystic-I-foresaw-beloved-grannys-death.html

Another source which should be considered is the recently-published book, "The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences"
http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/general-discussion-of-ndes-and-obes.3271/page-9#post-94907
Is that the book that was published in another language and IANDS was asking for donations to have it translated into English?
 
#26
Not to go too far down the dreaded Conspiracy Theory road, but I think Alex is right when he says he thinks there is a connection between the constant pushing of materialism, both economically and philosophically, the scientific establishment and western governments.

There is just too much out there to not connect the dots. I also agree with him that it's probably not some small group of people in some secret meeting place hashing out all the details of how to convince the world of materialism. I think it's comes about from various groups working together to fulfill their own best interests, i.e. corporations maximizing profits and minimizing labor, government maintaining control and approval for wars fought for the best interest of a very few (often monetary), science further establishing itself as the beacon of knowledge for the masses (hence power, control and of course, money) and even religions to an extent, wanting to keep their hand in the pot as they feel their own power, control and wealth diminishing.

And I don't think it's all made up of evil individuals trying to screw over the world. Though there are likely at least some people like that, I think it's mostly people who just think they are doing the right thing. I also think there are likely some who are uncomfortable with what they see happening, such as the scientist concerned about some of the current practices, but afraid to speak up because they don't want to ruin their own career. Or the millions of people who work for various corporations who are just trying to support themselves and their families, so they ignore the cognitive dissonance their job might cause them. There are likely even some in government that don't like how things are done and hope to change that. Or maybe they do believe they are doing the right thing.

But ultimately it leads to one thing- convincing the populace that they are empty, meaningless drones whose job it is to serve their country, their corporation or their church. It's mutually beneficial for all of these agents that we not value ourselves too highly, that we see our lives as ultimately meaningless and a cosmic accident. That the only meaning we can derive from our lives is the sacrifice of it "for the future". Whether that be through fighting a war (to protect our children, our nation, our way of life!) or giving our lives over to jobs that pay less and less while demanding more so that you can help pay for those massive student loans (that enrich academia) so that your children, the future, has a chance. But a chance for what? To become a drone like you? To work and sacrifice and give, for their children? For the future? It's always some future promise, isn't it? A peace that never materializes. Economic stability that never comes to pass. Knowledge that doesn't seem to enrich our lives as much as it seems to be enslaving us further.

So why are these same "studies" published and promoted over and over and over again? Because it serves those with wealth and power for us to believe we are nobodies, in a nothing universe going nowhere. Our only value is in our sacrifice. It has always been this way. Men "serving their King" by sacrificing their lives for their Kings kingdom. Funny how that sacrifice never seemed to do much to better the lives of those who sacrificed. The only difference is that then, God and His Almighty punishment was used to control and subvert. Now, it is scientism, with its own creation myth, prophets and means of control.
 
#27
Not to go too far down the dreaded Conspiracy Theory road, but I think Alex is right when he says he thinks there is a connection between the constant pushing of materialism, both economically and philosophically, the scientific establishment and western governments.

There is just too much out there to not connect the dots. I also agree with him that it's probably not some small group of people in some secret meeting place hashing out all the details of how to convince the world of materialism. I think it's comes about from various groups working together to fulfill their own best interests, i.e. corporations maximizing profits and minimizing labor, government maintaining control and approval for wars fought for the best interest of a very few (often monetary), science further establishing itself as the beacon of knowledge for the masses (hence power, control and of course, money) and even religions to an extent, wanting to keep their hand in the pot as they feel their own power, control and wealth diminishing.

And I don't think it's all made up of evil individuals trying to screw over the world. Though there are likely at least some people like that, I think it's mostly people who just think they are doing the right thing. I also think there are likely some who are uncomfortable with what they see happening, such as the scientist concerned about some of the current practices, but afraid to speak up because they don't want to ruin their own career. Or the millions of people who work for various corporations who are just trying to support themselves and their families, so they ignore the cognitive dissonance their job might cause them. There are likely even some in government that don't like how things are done and hope to change that. Or maybe they do believe they are doing the right thing.

But ultimately it leads to one thing- convincing the populace that they are empty, meaningless drones whose job it is to serve their country, their corporation or their church. It's mutually beneficial for all of these agents that we not value ourselves too highly, that we see our lives as ultimately meaningless and a cosmic accident. That the only meaning we can derive from our lives is the sacrifice of it "for the future". Whether that be through fighting a war (to protect our children, our nation, our way of life!) or giving our lives over to jobs that pay less and less while demanding more so that you can help pay for those massive student loans (that enrich academia) so that your children, the future, has a chance. But a chance for what? To become a drone like you? To work and sacrifice and give, for their children? For the future? It's always some future promise, isn't it? A peace that never materializes. Economic stability that never comes to pass. Knowledge that doesn't seem to enrich our lives as much as it seems to be enslaving us further.

So why are these same "studies" published and promoted over and over and over again? Because it serves those with wealth and power for us to believe we are nobodies, in a nothing universe going nowhere. Our only value is in our sacrifice. It has always been this way. Men "serving their King" by sacrificing their lives for their Kings kingdom. Funny how that sacrifice never seemed to do much to better the lives of those who sacrificed. The only difference is that then, God and His Almighty punishment was used to control and subvert. Now, it is scientism, with its own creation myth, prophets and means of control.
well yea thats why it needs to change and is past life study's and nde study's are more open now 81% of people think there is life after death the church is growing not getting smaller and as we start talking to the east more how people think will also the thing i am trying to get down to is does this paper mean any thing its not like the normal one this one is saying they can make ndes this is at the top of the nde scale so is there any work to back this up or is it just more stupid blah blah
 
#29
do they say they can produce veridical information which is outside the range of normal senses while there is no blood supply to the brain? Or even when the brain is fully active come to that?
no it is stating thta they know how to make then tho threw some part of the brain thats the part in trying to tackle
 
#30
well yea thats why it needs to change and is past life study's and nde study's are more open now 81% of people think there is life after death the church is growing not getting smaller and as we start talking to the east more how people think will also the thing i am trying to get down to is does this paper mean any thing its not like the normal one this one is saying they can make ndes this is at the top of the nde scale so is there any work to back this up or is it just more stupid blah blah
In the clip, the subject appears to be having some type of odd experience, by feeding them deliberately false visual information... the subject takes ownership of their virtual body because the researchers are feeding the subject real time sensory information. This is the same as any of the other body/self research... like the rubber hand illusion etc.

When the subject has properly accepted the virtual body, the researchers then take control of the subjects virtual perspective. Instead of the apparent visual location of self being where the subject would expect their virtual head to be located, the researchers change the visual perspective to an OBE perspective, whilst maintaining the other sensory stimuli. This causes a conflict between body sensory data, and visual sensory data, compared to what we are used to experiencing... It's bound to be a very odd feeling to the subject.

With regards to general OBE NDE's, this research actually supports the idea that the sensory data reported by veridical OBE experients is real. Because it requires real sensory data to invoke the effect in this research... but this research doesn't tell us where the visual sensory data is coming from. To invoke the subjects odd experience, the researchers had to give the subject a *real* OBE visual perspective... which is a little odd, considering that most researchers would say the OBE is internally generated.

All this type of research requires real sensory data, despite researchers implicit suggestion that such imagery is internally generated, which is difficult to understand. And it's also difficult to reconcile with classic veridical type OBE's on the operating table, recalled by patients who were anaesthetised and in cardiac arrest.
 
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#32
In the clip, the subject appears to be having some type of odd experience, by feeding them deliberately false visual information... the subject takes ownership of their virtual body because the researchers are feeding the subject real time sensory information. This is the same as any of the other body/self research... like the rubber hand illusion etc.

When the subject has properly accepted the virtual body, the researchers then take control of the subjects virtual perspective. Instead of the apparent visual location of self being where the subject would expect their virtual head to be located, the researchers change the visual perspective to an OBE perspective, whilst maintaining the other sensory stimuli. This causes a conflict between body sensory data, and visual sensory data, compared to what we are used to experiencing... It's bound to be a very odd feeling to the subject.

With regards to general OBE NDE's, this research actually supports the idea that the sensory data reported by veridical OBE experients is real. Because it requires real sensory data to invoke the effect in this research... but this research doesn't tell us where the visual sensory data is coming from. To invoke the subjects odd experience, the researchers had to give the subject a *real* OBE visual perspective... which is a little odd, considering that most researchers would say the OBE is internally generated.

All this type of research requires real sensory data, despite researchers implicit suggestion that such imagery is internally generated, which is difficult to understand. And it's also difficult to reconcile with classic veridical type OBE's on the operating table, recalled by patients who were anaesthetised and in cardiac arrest.
so are u saying this supports the idea of people leaving there body during a nde
 
#34
no it is stating thta they know how to make then tho threw some part of the brain thats the part in trying to tackle
So you are saying simultaneously that they are able to make NDEs and also that they are not able to make NDEs. There's no obligation to 'choose a side', ambiguity is perfectly acceptable. But it seems you are asking a question which is so vague it doesn't define where it stands and what it is asking. Consequently there is no answer and there is every answer.
 
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#35
So you are saying simultaneously that they are able to make NDEs and also that they are not able to make NDEs. There's no obligation to 'choose a side', ambiguity is perfectly acceptable. But it seems you are asking a question which is so vague it doesn't define where it stands and what it is asking. Consequently there is no answer and there is every answer.
well i think there paper brings nothing new to the table just old stuff from the past
 
#36
So, in your opinion a controversy with one patient translates to "failed miserably with his coma research"? Just curious, what work do you do?
No. Blatantly promoting a bunch of premature conclusions in a lot of media outlets, only to be forced to retract does. Apparently, you don't know how arrogant he was in his assertions, or how he dismissed those that disagreed with his research. Don't bother trying to discuss something if you are unaware of the circumstances, Linda.
 
#37
No. Blatantly promoting a bunch of premature conclusions in a lot of media outlets, only to be forced to retract does. Apparently, you don't know how arrogant he was in his assertions, or how he dismissed those that disagreed with his research. Don't bother trying to discuss something if you are unaware of the circumstances, Linda.
yeah this guy does not look at any of other people work liek the parnia study or any thing this is not real ndes are not just dying brains its more to it
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#39
Honestly you're going to see many, many more articles and papers claiming to explain NDEs in materialist terms.

It's funny because they were supposedly "explained" years ago.

I'd ask for some replications, examinations of conflict-of-interest, etc.
 
#39
Honestly you're going to see many, many more articles and papers claiming to explain NDEs in materialist terms.

It's funny because they were supposedly "explained" years ago.

I'd ask for some replications, examinations of conflict-of-interest, etc.
i know they claim a lot this guy is claiming that he made them no problem he even is getting a thing on it at net geo so this one is at the top of all nde papers but im not sure if its bull crap or not
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#40
i know they claim a lot this guy is claiming that he made them no problem he even is getting a thing on it at net geo so this one is at the top of all nde papers but im not sure if its bull crap or not
Curious - How many people do you think actually read National Geographic?

These papers are just theories and conjectures, picked up by media outlets hoping to debunk anything that suggests an afterlife.

First you'd have to solve the minimal brain structures necessary for memory & waking consciousness, only then could you determine whether NDEs are physical.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a decisive answer either way.
 
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