Tunnel of light created by turning of head

#1
This is a Reddit account of a motorcycle accident, where...

"Its seems like it goes on for hours and hours but in the real world its maybe 45 seconds and as strange as it seems when your body is pumping adrenalin your mind can process so much . After I watched a ESPN video and the racer was saying how she can have entire conversations with herself in the 5 seconds a top fuel run takes and it is exactly that same process . I could remember every feeling from my first kiss to my kid being born to entire conversations that lasted for hours . theres no way the entire time can be explained in a 6 minute period so I fully understand why the belief that life is eternal after death but the one thing that nobody else who has died will tell you is that after a while it finally ends . It is like watching a movie of your life and when the movie ends the theather goes black."

"I crushed my skull right where the vertebral artery goes through and I could be sitting in bed absolutely fine and could have a normal conversation with the doctors and he would say turn your head to the left and I would go into the whole tunnel of light experience . turn to the right and I would see the room turn sideways . all you are doing is cutting off blood to a receptor in the brain and getting that effect . the same holds true for hallucinations . all of it is in your brain and depending on what part you starve or give an overdose can give you the result you seek , Everything you see smell feel or sense is because of your brain . If you spent as much time as I did with neurosurgeons and nuerophyscologists you would understand just how much we get scammed by our own brain"

https://www.reddit.com/r/tabled/comments/2hahtm/table_iama_in_2007_i_suffered_an_internal/
 
#2
I don't really buy into these physical explanations, such as "it seems when your body is pumping adrenalin your mind can process so much". That would seem to imply that under extreme conditions the body pulls out all the stops and gives maximum performance. I would say such experiences are entirely normal and don't require any such extreme physical conditions.
 
#3
I suspect it's better not to extrapolate too much from one's own experiences. There's nothing that says that a particular phenomena has to have a single cause as far as I can see. Just because I can replicate an experience in one way, doesn't mean that's the way it always occurs.

There are also the experiences which seem to contain verifiable information which could not have been known by the subject or are unlikely to have been known by them.
 
#4
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/anomalous-characteristics-of-near-death.html

Anomalous Characteristics of Near-death Experiences

  • Enhanced consciousness such as realer-than-real detail, 360 degree vision, and colors not seen before.
  • Blind people see during NDEs. (Hogan)
  • Memories of NDEs are more detailed than normal memories.
  • Visions of deceased people, sometimes deceased people the experiencer had never met or seen pictures of. (Hogan)
  • A life review where the experiencer feels how he affected other people from their point of view.
  • Veridical (verifiable) perceptions where the experiencer perceived something when their brain was not functioning, and or perceived something that they could not have perceived with their normal senses even if they were conscious.
  • NDEs have been experienced by people not close to death.
  • "Lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning" (Beauregard), calmness and tranquility (near-death.com), when their medical condition should cause confusion and amnesia, disorientation and fear.
  • Spiritual transformation.
  • NDEs involve a subjectively conscious experience while the experiencer is objectively unconscious. Hallucinations almost always occur when the subject is awake and conscious. (near-death.com)
  • NDEs occur more often during flat EEGs and not during abnormal EEGs. (Hogan)
  • "NDEs are remarkably consistent across virtually all experiencers regardless of age, nationality, religious background, and all other demographics", including atheists. (Hogan)
  • "Many parts of the brain must be coherent for lucid experiences to occur yet NDEs occur when there is no EEG activity." (Hogan)
  • NDErs experience "heightened awareness, attention, and memory at a time when consciousness and memory formation are not expected to be functioning" and "only confusional and paranoid thinking... should occur" (Hogan)
  • "In some cases, a third party has observed visionary figures seen by the experiencers" (Tymn)
  • Healthy people attending the dying sometimes share in the NDE. (Facco and Christian)
  • Because of the way the brain is wired, it cannot produce an NDE. (Alexander)
  • "The most important objection to the adequacy of all ... reductionistic hypotheses is that mental clarity, vivid sensory imagery, a clear memory of the experience, and a conviction that the experience seemed more real than ordinary consciousness are the norm for NDEs. They occur even in conditions of drastically altered cerebral physiology under which the production theory would deem consciousness impossible. (Greyson)



None of the materialist attempts to explain NDEs can really explain them. NDEs cannot be explained by a lack of oxygen, a dying brain, hallucinations, religious expectations, cultural expectations, hearing about medical procedures after the fact, hearing during resuscitation, brain dysfunction, retinal dysfunction causing an image of a tunnel, brain chemicals such as ketamine, endogenous opioids, neurotransmitter imbalances, or hallucinogens including DMT, REM intrusions, epilepsy or seizures, psychopathology, unique personality traits, residual brain activity during unconsciousness, the experience occurring before or after brain activity stopped, evolutionary adaptation, depersonalization, memory of birth, medication, defense against dying, or partial anesthesia.
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html
 
#5
Some parts of this guy's story confuse me. He mentions that he had his initial experience when the crash occurred, but he also states that he had the "tunnel of light experience" every time he turned his head. I wonder if he means that he, at one point in his recovery, was able to induce an NDE on command, or "simply the tunnel of light" part.
 
#6
None of the materialist attempts to explain NDEs can really explain them. NDEs cannot be explained by a lack of oxygen, a dying brain, hallucinations, religious expectations, cultural expectations, hearing about medical procedures after the fact, hearing during resuscitation, brain dysfunction, retinal dysfunction causing an image of a tunnel, brain chemicals such as ketamine, endogenous opioids, neurotransmitter imbalances, or hallucinogens including DMT, REM intrusions, epilepsy or seizures, psychopathology, unique personality traits, residual brain activity during unconsciousness, the experience occurring before or after brain activity stopped, evolutionary adaptation, depersonalization, memory of birth, medication, defense against dying, or partial anesthesia.
Jim, this seems to be based on your personal opinion not on scientific evidence. I understand that you are anti-science and oppose science for being based on "materialism", you even admit it on your blog but when I click on that blog link (your own blog) the people you are quoting from are Michael E. Tymn, Michael Prescott and Craig Hogan. None of these men are neuroscientists or scientists with peer-reviewed papers on the topic. If you want to learn about science shouldn't we be reading scientific papers from scientists? Michael Prescott is a fiction writer. Craig Hogan is the director of the "Center for Spiritual Understanding and on the boards of the Academy of Spiritual and Paranormal Studies" and Michael E. Tymn is known spiritualist author etc. In other words not science.

Everything you have written is wrong and could easily be refuted but I highlight ketamine in your post because what you have written is completely inaccurate.

The research of Karl Jansen has revealed how the effects of an NDE can be induced by ketamine. In 1996 he published a paper on the subject which concluded "mounting evidence suggests that the reproduction/induction of NDE's by ketamine is not simply an interesting coincidence... ketamine administered by intravenous injection, in appropriate dosage, is capable of reproducing all of the features of the NDE which have been commonly described in the most cited works in this field."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience#Neurobiological_and_psychological_analysis

You can read his paper here.

The Ketamine Model of the Near Death Experience:
A Central Role for the NMDA Receptor

http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/Documents/The_Ketamine_Model_of_the_Near_Death_Experience.9264.shtml


NDE's can be safely induced by ketamine, and the glutamate theory of the NDE can thus be investigated by experiment. Discoveries in neuroscience suggest a common origin for ketamine experiences and the NDE in events occuring at glutamatergic synapses, mediated by NMDA receptors via their PCP channel component. This hypothesis links most of the neurobiological and psychological theories (hypoxia, a peptide flood, temporal lobe electrical abnormalities, regression in the service of the ego, reactivation of birth memories, sensory deprivation etc.) rather than being an alternative to them. Most of the tenets of the hypothesis are strongly supported by experimental evidence which implicates glutamate and NMDA receptors in the processes which precipitate NDE's. The postulate that anti-excitotoxic agents can flood the brain remains to be clearly established.

Spiritualists have sometimes seen scientific explanations of NDE's as dull and reductionist. However, the exploration of the mind-brain interface is one of the most exciting adventures which humans have ever undertaken. The real reductionism lies in attempts to draw a mystical shroud over the NDE, and to belittle the substantial evidence in favour of an scientific explanation.
The ketamine administrated by injection has been proven to produce all the features of the NDE in patients. Science does not put magical spirits in the gap over a naturalistic explanation... When you say a materialist explanation fails to explain the NDE, the reason you are saying this is based on your personal belief (preconceived paranormal beliefs i.e. bias) not the empirical evidence. So please explain why Ketamine fails to explain the NDE. At the very least you must accept it is an entirely valid scientic explanation that can explain some cases. Regards.
 
#8
I'm also a bit confused as to his interpretation of his experience. He mentions some telltale NDE signs (time dilation, Tunnel of Light, life review, feeling of euphoria) and even recognizes that he was dead for 6 minutes, yet he explains his experience via a surge of chemicals, a lack of blood flow, and hypoxia, but isn't very clear about why these are the case. The reason I mention these causes are because they've been studied extensively by NDE researchers and have been found insufficient for explaining the phenomena. Perhaps there was more to the head turning thing than the guy let on, but I don't really see his reasoning as to why his experience was hallucinatory.
 
#9
You can never stop someone saying something like this to explain the characteristics of NDE's and that is why the cutting edge studies only focus
on the period after cardiac arrest where the brain is not working. After cardiac arrest consciousness is lost in an instant and after 10 seconds or so there should be NO experience at all, nothing that can be attributed to brain function and reports like the one above can be set aside as interesting but ultimately irrelevant.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#10
IIRC Jim is a molecular biologist, so I don't think he's anti-science. Anti-materialism perhaps, but that isn't anti-science as it just rejects certain absurdities materialism arguably leads to (see Rosenberg vs Tallis on intentionality).

Why wouldn't Ketamine be seen in the same way as DMT, a potential gateway to the Numinous under Strassman's theoneurological model? In fact it seems Karlsen - the guy who did the ketamine study - offered up this possibility as well:

...Thus, it seems (at first blush) to support the position that GII holds: NDEs have a natural explanation and should be studied as a purely natural phenomenon. People suggesting otherwise are impeding the progress of science.

However, since it was written, Dr. Jansen has affixed the following disclaimer to the paper:

"I am no longer as opposed to spritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space."

So the very person who proposes that NDEs ought to be studied scientifically and is used by GII to bolster that very case now favors a more philosophical approach. An approach that is sensitive to the spiritual dimension of the human mind rather than just studying the mechanical aspects of brain chemistry. Jansen expands on the case of ketamine inducing a spiritual state in his book Ketamine: Dreams and Realities (MAPS: 2004).

But there's more at play here. Death is actually a natural process that has spiritual significance. As a natural process, we expect that it has a cause found square within our universe (for more on the philosophical interaction of discrete systems see proof #4). If death had no internal cause, then an autopsy would be a waste of time. Since a cause of death can be found within the universe, it stands to reason that a wholly natural trigger may also exist. In this case, ketamine kick starts the process of death. Once exposed to it, an otherwise healthy person begins to die. That would trigger an NDE if the subject is still conscious.

That is still consistent with a theistic worldview...
It seems to me the deciding factor rests heavily on veridical info obtained during these sorts of experiences to decide between the immaterialist and materialist views. That or some good knowledge of how much brain activity is required to produce particular experiences and whether this accommodates the stuff Tim just mentioned above.
 
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#11
The reason I mention these causes are because they've been studied extensively by NDE researchers and have been found insufficient for explaining the phenomena.
But have they really? I've seen some pretty superficial discussions and suggestions for further research but I'm not sure any real in depth research has been done on this topic - mostly because its not that easy to really monitor what's happening in the brain and body during the NDE.

There have been some rough comparisons discussing similarities and differences, some rough extrapolations but nothing that I've seen really testing this in any kind of comprehensive manner. Most discussions seem to draw all or nothing type conclusions based on the comparisons not being exact and then using that as a reason to conclude that therefore chemical reactions can't explain NDEs

There may be some studies I'm not aware of though - If anyone has one they think does show this it would be great to discuss it.
 
#12
"I crushed my skull right where the vertebral artery goes through and I could be sitting in bed absolutely fine and could have a normal conversation with the doctors and he would say turn your head to the left and I would go into the whole tunnel of light experience . turn to the right and I would see the room turn sideways . /
This doesn't even begin to negate the gestalt surrounding the NDE. What does he mean by "the whole tunnel of light experience"? I'm sure that particular sensation could probably be replicated by any number of things. It's like the guys working on the OBE who can create the feeling of being out of the body using 3D surround goggles, etc. That's not an OBE. It is an approximation of the feeling of one part of the experience.
 
#13
But have they really? I've seen some pretty superficial discussions and suggestions for further research but I'm not sure any real in depth research has been done on this topic - mostly because its not that easy to really monitor what's happening in the brain and body during the NDE.

There have been some rough comparisons discussing similarities and differences, some rough extrapolations but nothing that I've seen really testing this in any kind of comprehensive manner. Most discussions seem to draw all or nothing type conclusions based on the comparisons not being exact and then using that as a reason to conclude that therefore chemical reactions can't explain NDEs

There may be some studies I'm not aware of though - If anyone has one they think does show this it would be great to discuss it.
I know there's been research done into the effects of hypoxia and minimal blood flow in the brain, but I'm not too sure on the studies between NDEs and drug experiences. There have been a few that point out the differences between them, but I do feel more research should be done.
 
#14
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#15
I know there's been research done into the effects of hypoxia and minimal blood flow in the brain, but I'm not too sure on the studies between NDEs and drug experiences. There have been a few that point out the differences between them, but I do feel more research should be done.
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html

http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html#oxygen
Lack of oxygen:
Hogan: Lack of oxygen causes stupor without memories of the experience. People experiencing NDEs report enhanced consciousness not stupor and they remember their NDE. "Dr. Fred Schoonmaker, a cardiologist from Denver, had by 1979 carried out investigations of over 2,000 patients who had suffered cardiac arrests, many of whom reported NDEs. His findings showed that NDEs occurred when there was no deprivation of oxygen."
Tymn (Summary of Hogan)
Prescott (including acceleration induced hypoxia in pilots training under high g forces.):
The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.
Facco and Christian
Evidence against simple mechanistic interpretations comes also from a well-known prospective study by van Lommel et al. (2001), which showed no influence of given medication even in patients who were in coma for weeks. Factors such as duration of cardiac arrest (the degree of anoxia), duration of unconsciousness, intubation, induced cardiac arrest, and the administered medication were found to be irrelevant in the occurrence of NDEs.

...

Furthermore, complete brain anoxia with absent electrical activity in cardiac arrest is incompatible with any form of consciousness, according to present scientific knowledge, making the finding of an explanation for NDEs a challenging task for the ruling physicalist and reductionist view of biomedicine (Kelly et al., 2007; Greyson, 2010b; van Lommel, 2010).
Beauregard:
As pointed out by renowned NDE researcher Sam Parnia, some individuals have reported an NDE when they had not been terminally ill and so would have had normal levels of oxygen in their brains.

...

Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning. They also have an excellent memory of the NDE, which usually stays with them for several decades.

...

Such rapid acceleration decreases blood flow and, consequently, delivery of oxygen to the brain. In so doing, it induces brief periods of unconsciousness that Whinnery calls “dreamlets.” Whinnery hypothesized that although some of the core features of NDEs are found during dreamlets, the main characteristics of dreamlets are impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, confusion, and disorientation upon awakening. These symptoms are not typically associated with NDEs. In addition, life transformations are never reported following dreamlets.
Greyson
Moreover, cells in the hippocampus, the region thought to be essential for memory formation, are especially vulnerable to the effects of anoxia (Vriens et al., 1996).
Fighter pilots experienceing anoxia due to high g forces tend to report visions of living people not deceased people as NDErs do.
near-death.com
Other possible explanations are a lack of oxygen in the brain, or too much carbon dioxide. But these would not explain why some patients are able to give full and cogent reports of things that went on around them during their NDE. Cardiologist Dr. Michael Sabom has reported one patient who, while having a NDE, watched his doctor perform a blood test that revealed both high oxygen and low carbon dioxide. Comparisons between NDEs and hallucinations produced by an oxygen-starved brain show that the latter are chaotic and much more similar to psychotic hallucinations. Confusion, disorientation, and fear are the typical characteristics, compared with the tranquility, calm, and sense of order of a NDE. There are some features in common: a sense of well-being and power, and themes of death and dying. But people who have experienced both at different times say that there is an unmistakable difference.

Hallucinations, whether deliberately drug-induced, the result of medication, or caused by oxygen deprivation, almost always take place while the subject is awake and conscious, whereas NDEs happen during unconsciousness, sometimes when the subject is so close to death that no record of brain activity is recorded on an electroencephalograph, the machine that monitors brain waves. Also, the medical conditions that take subjects to the brink of death, and to having a NDE, do not necessarily include oxygen-deprivation, or any medication. This is particularly true of accident victims. NDEs appear to occur at the moment when the threat of death occurs, not necessarily at the time, maybe hours later, when death is close enough to be starving the brain of oxygen.
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html#medicine
Medication:
Hogan
The reports are of sensations and consciousness that are more lucid than normal, an effect opposite to that of a brain clouded by drugs.

Michael Sabom, a cardiologist on staff at Northside and Saint Joseph’s Hospitals in Atlanta, Georgia, studied the experiences described in NDEs and concluded that they are quite different from hallucinations induced by drugs.194

Hogan also qotes Melvin Morse:

In the case of the suggestion that mind-altering medication causes the NDE, Melvin Morse has produced a study where a group of one hundred and twenty-one children were seriously ill, but had less than a five per cent chance of dying, and yet none had an NDE [because they had not been near death]. Of another thirty-seven children who had received many forms of mind-changing drugs, again, there were no NDEs. However, in another group of twelve children who had suffered a cardiac arrest, eight of these recalled having an NDE. A considerable amount has been written by medical professionals that demonstrates that medication cannot be the cause of the NDE.195
Tymn: "...there are numerous NDEs not involving medication or drugs...Hogan cites the research of Michael Sabom, a Georgia cardiologist, and Melvin Morse, a professor of pediatrics, both demonstrating that the experiences are quite different from hallucinations caused by drugs..."
Facco and Christian
... a well-known prospective study by van Lommel et al. (2001), which showed no influence of given medication even in patients who were in coma for weeks. Factors such as duration of cardiac arrest (the degree of anoxia), duration of unconsciousness, intubation, induced cardiac arrest, and the administered medication were found to be irrelevant in the occurrence of NDEs.
 
#16
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail.html#brain_chemical
Brain chemicals such as ketamine, DMT, etc.:
Prescott (ketamine)
Unlike the vast majority of NDEs, ketamine experiences are often frightening and involve bizarre imagery, and patients usually express the wish not to repeat the experience. Most ketamine users also recognize the illusory character of their experience, in contrast to the many NDE experiencers who are firmly convinced of the reality of what they experienced and its lack of resemblance to illusions or dreams. Even if ketamine experiences do resemble NDEs in some respects, many important features of NDEs, such as seeing deceased people or a revival of memories, have not been reported with ketamine. Furthermore, ketamine typically exerts its effects in an otherwise more or less normal brain, while many NDEs occur under conditions in which brain function is severely compromised. [Pages 380-381]
Facco and Christian (endogenous opioids, neurotransmitter imbalance and hallucinogens including DMT)
Endogenous opioids, which are likely released in critical conditions, are only weak hallucinogens, though they might help to evoke vivid experiences, particularly when in combination with cognitive confusion. Nevertheless, NDEs are not reported by patients using opioids for severe pain, while their cerebral adverse effects display an entirely different phenomenology in comparison to NDEs (Mercadante et al., 2004; Vella-Brincat and Macleod, 2007). Morse also found that NDE occurrence in children is independent from drug administration, including opioids (Morse et al., 1986). Therefore, opioids are far from successful at entirely explaining the positive mood and vivid “hallucinations” of NDEs.

The topic of neurotransmitter imbalance and hallucinogens is very complex and far beyond the limits of this analysis; however, even though some psychedelic drugs such as DMT and ayahuasca can give rise to quite similar experiences (Strassman, 2001), aside from providing usable analogies for NDEs, there are marked differences between the hallucinations that accompany use of psychedelic drugs and NDEs, preventing the latter's interpretation as a simple byproduct of the release of specific neurotransmitters (see Facco, 2010, as a review of the topic).
Beauregard (ketamine)
But ketamine experiences are often frightening, producing weird images; and most ketamine users realize that the experiences produced by this drug are illusory. In contrast, NDErs are strongly convinced of the reality of what they experienced. Furthermore, many of the central features of NDEs are not reported with ketamine.
 
#17
I know there's been research done into the effects of hypoxia and minimal blood flow in the brain, but I'm not too sure on the studies between NDEs and drug experiences. There have been a few that point out the differences between them, but I do feel more research should be done.
But all these studies, from what I've seen, take too much of a black and white approach. If brain processes are involved there's no reason to assume that all NDEs will all have used the exact same brain processes. There may be various brain processes being engaged and they may play more or less of a role in different NDEs. There may be all sorts of factors that play a role.

Also: similar brain processes may be triggered by different means. The triggers may vary producing similar results.

The particular combination of brain processes may result in the particular way that some NDErs experience them. Any number of factors could be involved.

I'm not making a particular argument for anyone one of them, just trying to point out that the investigation of this issue is complex and will likely require a much more subtle and multifaceted analysis than those presented to date.
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#18
With respect to the varied explanations, posted this in the other thread awhile back:

New Scientist: Near-death experiences are overwhelmingly peaceful

There are several hypothesises as to how these events arise, such as lack of oxygen to the brain or damage to areas that control emotion. "So you'd expect to see differences between near-death experiences after drowning and those of other traumas," he says.

His team looked at 190 documented events that resulted from traumas including cardiac arrest, drowning, head injury and high anxiety. Using statistical analysis and a measurement called the Greyson scale to assess the number and intensity of different features of the near-death experiences, the team discovered that surprisingly, the reports shared many similarities.
 
#20
But all these studies, from what I've seen, take too much of a black and white approach. If brain processes are involved there's no reason to assume that all NDEs will all have used the exact same brain processes. There may be various brain processes being engaged and they may play more or less of a role in different NDEs. There may be all sorts of factors that play a role.

Also: similar brain processes may be triggered by different means. The triggers may vary producing similar results.

The particular combination of brain processes may result in the particular way that some NDErs experience them. Any number of factors could be involved.

I'm not making a particular argument for anyone one of them, just trying to point out that the investigation of this issue is complex and will likely require a much more subtle and multifaceted analysis than those presented to date.
I thought you knew that Parnia is ONLY studying cardiac arrest ADE's or Actual death experiences. According to Parnia these people were not close to death.. or nearly dead, they WERE >dead< sometimes for hours.

At some stage Arouet, you are going to have to start dealing with the uncomfortable facts because it is pointless dragging back the goalposts to where you can save your worldview.
 
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