What exactly do you believe NDEs demonstrate?

As I've mentioned before, the notion that NDEs make survival of consciousness less likely rather than more...would probably be the most far fetched thing one could possibly say about them.

Why does the notion of "NDEs make survival of consciousness less likely rather than more?"
 
Agreed. We just have to be careful that we don't conclude that some interpretation of a NDE experience describes an actual afterlife realm or event.

Well, many (if not most) people who have undergone an NDE interpret their personal experience as evidence for an actual afterlife realm. Whether or not such an interpretation is justified is open for debate.
 
Why does the notion of "NDEs make survival of consciousness less likely rather than more?"

I can't see how it tells me anything either for, or against an afterlife. But I do think it can tell me something important about life.
 
Why does the notion of "NDEs make survival of consciousness less likely rather than more?"

One would think, given the way some people argue, that this is the case. That was my point.

In my view, NDEs are fairly strong prima facie evidence for the survival of consciousness. I'm not sure that there's ever going to be unequivocal evidence, however, short of being dead yourself and knowing that you have survived it.
 
I'd also like to add that I think it at least *possible*, for some people who have experienced NDE or mystical states, that they comprise incontrovertible or self-authenticating evidence. This is a tricky issue, as it cannot be incontrovertible for people outside of the experience. So to clarify, I regard myself as having incontrovertible, self-authenticating evidence that I am conscious...which is the fact that I am conscious. Similarily, I am suggesting, it may in some cases, and for the people in those states, be incontrovertible evidence (in those states or subsequent to them) that consciousness survives death.
 
What if in the near death experience one receives the information or communication (somehow) that "this is an afterlife realm", if the NDEr returns thinking "this was an afterlife realm", is this still an interpretation of the near death experience, or is it part of the experience?
Since it's a purely subjective, mental experience, I'd say the entire thing is interpretation.

~~ Paul
 
What exactly do you believe NDEs ("near-death experiences") demonstrate?

A demonstration is a "showing or presentation" designed to communicate an essential point about a phenomenon. NDE's (or any type of extra-sensory event) demonstrate only to those who experience them. In a high percentage, what is demonstrated is personalized deep-meaning , in an individual's experience. There is "understanding" made available, unlike normal seeking or learning.

At a different and separate level - there are data-points - from the individual reports. These are objective; and their patterns of occurrence and content can be analyzed.

I find most responses here are conflating these two separate pathways of demonstration.
 
I suppose NDEs can demonstrate lots of different things depending on their content and the circumstances at the time. For example, an NDE like Pam Reynolds, assuming it is as reported, in a highly controlled environment may tell us something about the connection between our mind and our body, a mainly symbolic NDE or one with no veridical content may be harder to pin down, personally I don't see the two in the same way.
 
Since it's a purely subjective, mental experience,

~~ Paul

Tautology alert - all experience is subjective, so an NDE is no different in its placement in the category of subjective phenomena than is any mental experience.

The question is can we measure the rate of occurrence in living things and determine whether it is a natural phenomenon, objectively. Do all people (or all living things with nervous systems) approaching death have some aspect of it? Then it is just a natural event. Documented research seems to show it has happened all throughout history and in all cultures.
 
Tautology alert - all experience is subjective, so an NDE is no different in its placement in the category of subjective phenomena than is any mental experience.
Agreed, which is why we need objective evidence of an afterlife realm. Of course, we probably also agree that my claim that I'm about to drive to Ferns Deli for a cup of coffee is easier to believe than the claim that I'm about to encounter my dead mother.

The question is can we measure the rate of occurrence in living things and determine whether it is a natural phenomenon, objectively. Do all people (or all living things with nervous systems) approaching death have some aspect of it? Then it is just a natural event. Documented research seems to show it has happened all throughout history and in all cultures.
I'm not convinced that the objective evidence is very powerful. But let's continue to investigate.

~~ Paul
 
I'd love it if you or some other 'hardliner' on NDE's showed up here one day trying to convince all of your skeptic pals, having had one yourself. (One leaving no physical effects of course)

You could be the Eben Alexander of the Skeptiko forum. :D
I'm betting I'd say that the NDE was quite interesting, but just a big scramble in my brain. Of course, I'd best not really place a bet on that until it happens.

~~ Paul
 
I'm not convinced that the objective evidence is very powerful. But let's continue to investigate.

~~ Paul

Paul, I am more respectful of the building data. Ray Moody has a new book and a new project, with which he is associated. NDE's are extreme cases of the natural process of dying. While most folks here are for or against this "big event", the real evidence is in the numbers and statistics of real life. A chance for someone to flat-line - and come back is a limited and spontaneous event.

On the other hand many, many people (maybe most) have a period of near death over a few days or weeks where the biological body is fading out. In this case there isn't news worthy stuff, but careful data gathering can tell us about what this "half-in and half out" state reveals about life's end and the information that floods the subjective mind.

Per the sister of Steve Jobs: Steve’s final words were: OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/opinion/mona-simpsons-eulogy-for-steve-jobs.html?_r=0

Moody's new book and research to put the data in scientific form is parsed below.
Panel features best-selling author and renowned near-death investigator Raymond Moody Jr., MD, PhD; psychologist and Bryn Athyn College professor Erica Goldblatt Hyatt, PhD; linguist and founder of the Final Words Project Lisa Smartt, MA; philosophy professor at Bryn Athyn College Dan Synnestvedt, PhD; and series editor of the New Century Edition translation of Emanuel Swedenborg’s writings Jonathan Rose, PhD....

What do the final words of those on their deathbed’s mean? What do they tell us about the next stage of existence?

The not-to-be-missed event on September 19th gives audiences an opportunity to hear Dr. Raymond Moody discuss his “typology of unintelligible language” and its relationship to consciousness. He will present his thesis that the words of the dying—especially those that appear to be puzzling or nonsensical—may offer new revelation into life beyond death. Erica Goldblatt Hyatt and Lisa Smartt, who together with Dr. Moody are conducting a groundbreaking study on the communications of the dying, will discuss how they’re applying Dr. Moody’s innovative typology to their research project design and what they have already discovered.
http://www.swedenborg.com/livestream
 
Main issue in my mind is not the usual one of physical evidence. That will likely never be resolved (in any *ordinary* way).
Deeper, imo, is the superior clarity and tone of awareness/gnosis/thought under periods of neurological compromise. This has no (valid) analogy that I can think of.
 
Intersting..the issue for me are veridical NDE's..How does this relate to pure hallucination ?. Reality distorts in hallucinogenic states, not clarifies. Neither do hallucinogenic individuals describe a reality verifiable by others
 
Intersting..the issue for me are veridical NDE's..How does this relate to pure hallucination ?. Reality distorts in hallucinogenic states, not clarifies. Neither do hallucinogenic individuals describe a reality verifiable by others

Actually, there are many reports of shared experiences in hallucinogenic states. Not all of these are easily dismissed.
 
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