What science-as-we-know-it can learn for the 9/11 truth movement |295|

Discussion in 'Skeptiko Shows' started by Alex, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    Again I see your analogy suggesting that the spiritual is like the physical. The wind is not creating the leaves and branches that it interacts with. Spirit (primary consciousness) isn't some thing, it isn't "out there" separate from you. It is you, you are it. You are one aspect of spirit expressing as physical.
     
  2. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    A thing is a word. Those things which are not things must still be discussed as though they were. This is the nature of language and logic. The Logos is the set of things which can be discussed. That's why it is translated as: The Word. The Spirit approaches the things that cannot be spoken and speaks of them. That is the creation.
     
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  3. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    All that is based in materialist views. It's similar to those who think of spirit as having ears, eyes, etc. IOW spirit becomes a sort of advanced anthropomorphic entity or state. And most of what is being created is not physical.

    A to the nature of logic. Logic is, with regards to spirit, irrelevant. It is difficult to find language to describe spirit directly but one can at least use language that moves in that direction. To do so means moving awareness to access other than the physical.
     
  4. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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    I think you are the closet materialist who secretly believes in truth and time. This tough talk is all just a front. Heretic! :mad:
    Also, your mom is an anthropomorphism of Spirit!

    aw...I'm just kiddin... ;)
     
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  5. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    What I would say is this:
    -For me it is mixed up my mental illness (psychosis) in 2009 which featured an overwhelming feeling that God was real. So, I suppose you could say that my brain didn’t handle my paradigm busting moment very well :) Actually - more complicated than that. I had signs of illness in other aspects (i.e. I was obsessed by the 2008 financial crash) so I don’t believe there is a causal relationship.
    -Skeptiko has been key since then. Alex, your show and your guests have had a big impact on my life. I am not sure it is positive because I do believe life would be simpler and easier if my paradigms weren’t busted but they are. Not your fault. I was truth seeking before I encountered Skeptiko. Skeptiko just sort of organised things and lead me to sources and, sadly, the data is persuasive. So, therefore my paradigms are busted. I am just now working through being more open about this with friends. It has been locked away because it was wound round my mental illness. This stuff sounds crazy to people and it sounds even crazier when you admit you really do have a mental illness. So, the result was that I didn’t speak about any of it. I am now changing that.

    When I was acutely ill, I was believing in the Revelation (a classic grandiose/religious delusion). In a way, I still do in that I see Skeptiko (and similar websites) as being at the forefront of a slow “revelation” (lower case “r”) where certain mysteries are being solved by the magic of the internet. Really, it is just collation. The internet allows people to study these very rare things which was very difficult/impossible before. Why is it a “revelation”? Well, because I think implicit in so much of this stuff is God. Can one imagine reincarnation without God? Can one imagine the Spirit World without some kind of organisation or levels? Who the heck is that light in the NDEs? God is woven into all this stuff (though not sure how he/she fits into the UFO weirdness).

    This is the ultimate paradigm being busted. God moving from being a matter of faith to a matter of fact. The world being transformed by this knowledge. It is happening albeit slowly. Dr. Julie Beischel is proving that something is going on with mediums. Dr. Jim Tucker is expanding on Ian Stephenson’s work and, slowly, proving that there is something to reincarnation. Data is being collated on many fronts. It is accumulating. It cannot be ignored forever. This is something new. It is, ultimately, knowledge of God on the basis of evidence rather than faith.

    Where does it end? If we KNOW that God is there, will s/he step out of the shadows? How would you really feel if you could email God at god@heaven.org and get a reply?
     
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  6. SkepticRecruiterRecruiter

    SkepticRecruiterRecruiter New

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    hehe :D
     
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  7. Alex

    Alex New

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    funny...really sad.

    I just had a similar email exchange with a close, longtime friend who told me I was delusional after listening to this episode (he's listened to most, but I guess this one send him over the edge). He chastised me for associating with such delusional people as Luke (and James Corbett) and actually told me that he thought I was losing my mind (and he really meant it). I was shaken up by this. How could this person I had know for so long (thru weddings, shared vacations, close relationships with each others spouses and kids) really think I was delusional.

    The experience reminded me of my childhood and 20's when I felt like most of the people around me were playing some game that I didn't understand and hadn't been told the rules. I don't think I ever totally got over this feeling until the last couple of years... Skeptiko played a huge part (thx everyone :)). So, I've come to accept that some folks are going to have a really hard time with this paradigm thing... and I'm trying to let go of my instinct to "change them" and "show them I'm right." Easier said than done :)

    I'm with you part of the way on this, but I have to wonder if we're really all that different than those who have traveled this path before us. One of my favorite podcasts is http://www.mindpodnetwork.com/kd/ Krishna Das (an American musician in his 60's) reminds me how universal these challenges are.
     
  8. Alan Amsberg

    Alan Amsberg New

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    I think you just need to think long term. Things are not going to change tomorrow but over a 10/20/30 year timeframe I think they are going to change.
     
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  9. Steve

    Steve Member

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    It seems to me that this is a time for shaking up relationships like these. I hung up (twice) on a long term friend on Friday after he seriously wound up my 'inner Scotsman'! :) I still felt that I had done the right thing, well, maybe not right, but not wrong either all through the weekend, but I woke this morning feeling that I had to write to him. I apologised. At the same time I said that I still felt he was being whatever he was being, but I said life's too short. It's up to him now, if he wants to be an 'ex' friend, so be it.

    It was a strange episode, unusual for me since I had my stroke. My wife showed me an astrological reading for Dec 11th and the few days after. It said that I should watch out for arguments with family or friends, maybe you should check your chart Alex, or maybe your friends?;)
     
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  10. Hurmanetar

    Hurmanetar New

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  11. Alex

    Alex New

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    I don't discount what you're saying... things have changed... the internet has allowed me to access information I never would have otherwise. on the other hand, I'm really skeptical of the echo chamber that keeps telling us this time/age/transition is special.
     
  12. Alex

    Alex New

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    I had a very similar experience with my friend. I realized how my need to show him how closed-minded and idiotic he was (and therefore how superior I was) had been the real culprit in the rift. a hard growth pill for me to swallow :)
     
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  13. erickh

    erickh New

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    This reminds me of the famous teaching:

    "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
    Congrats for being able to see that log!
     
  14. Saiko

    Saiko Member

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    I'm certain that it is "special." However that doesn't mean that there won't be turmoil. It's why I believe genuinely open-minded people are often best served by focusing on exploring the oceans rather than arguing with those who want to stay at the docks.

    I myself have gotten too caught up in arguing. Whether I'm correct or not doesn't make it any less an approach that slows expanding. My - if you will - access beyond the standard modes all are affected. It's like keeping the TV on channel 2 while making a case about how much better channel 5 is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
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  15. Dina

    Dina New

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    I love what you wrote, that truth can be a superposition that changes according to the observer !
    We have to reconcile ourselves with the fact that we cannot find "the truth" and feel content of knowing partial truths.
     
  16. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-03/false-flags-are-just-conspiracy-theor-admitted-fact

    False Flags Are Just a Conspiracy Theor ... Admitted Fact
    Presidents, Prime Ministers, Congressmen, Generals, Spooks, Soldiers and Police ADMIT to False Flag Terror

    In the following instances, officials in the government which carried out the attack (or seriously proposed an attack) admit to it, either orally, in writing, or through photographs or videos:

    (1) Japanese troops set off a small explosion on a train track in 1931, and falsely blamed it on China in order to justify an invasion of Manchuria.
    ...
    (2) A major with the Nazi SS admitted at the Nuremberg trials that – under orders from the chief of the Gestapo – he and some other Nazi operatives faked attacks on their own people and resources which they blamed on the Poles, to justify the invasion of Poland.
    ...
    (4) Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev admitted in writing that the Soviet Union’s Red Army shelled the Russian village of Mainila in 1939 – while blaming the attack on Finland – as a basis for launching the “Winter War” against Finland.
    ...
    (6) The British government admits that – between 1946 and 1948 – it bombed 5 ships carrying Jews attempting to flee the Holocaust to seek safety in Palestine, set up a fake group called “Defenders of Arab Palestine”, and then had the psuedo-group falsely claim responsibility for the bombings
    ...
    (7) Israel admits that in 1954, an Israeli terrorist cell operating in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including U.S. diplomatic facilities, then left behind “evidence” implicating the Arabs as the culprits
    ...
    (8) The CIA admits that it hired Iranians in the 1950′s to pose as Communists and stage bombings in Iran
    ...
    (9) The Turkish Prime Minister admitted that the Turkish government carried out the 1955 bombing on a Turkish consulate in Greece ... and blamed it on Greece
    ...
    (11) The former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence admit that NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and other European countries in the 1950s and blamed the communists, in order to rally people’s support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism.
    ...
    (14) As admitted by the U.S. government, recently declassified documents show that in 1962, the American Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan to blow up AMERICAN airplanes (using an elaborate plan involving the switching of airplanes), and also to commit terrorist acts on American soil, and then to blame it on the Cubans in order to justify an invasion of Cuba.
    ...
    (18) A U.S. Congressional committee admitted that – as part of its “Cointelpro” campaign – the FBI had used many provocateurs in the 1950s through 1970s to carry out violent acts and falsely blame them on political activists.
    ...
    (19) A top Turkish general admitted that Turkish forces burned down a mosque on Cyprus in the 1970s and blamed it on their enemy.
    ...
    (25) In 1993, a bomb in Northern Ireland killed 9 civilians. Official documents from the Royal Ulster Constabulary (i.e. the British government) show that the mastermind of the bombing was a British agent, and that the bombing was designed to inflame sectarian tensions.
    ...
    (31) At the July 2001 G8 Summit in Genoa, Italy, black-clad thugs were videotaped getting out of police cars, and were seen by an Italian MP carrying “iron bars inside the police station”. Subsequently, senior police officials in Genoa subsequently admitted that police planted two Molotov cocktails and faked the stabbing of a police officer at the G8 Summit, in order to justify a violent crackdown against protesters.

     
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  17. SwiffFiffteh

    SwiffFiffteh Member

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    I know I'm late to the conversation, but I wanted to comment on this.

    IMO the most profound tenet of the Scientific Method is the philosophical realization that "the truth" is something unobtainable. Instead of searching for "truth", or evidence to "prove" that a given idea is "correct", followers of the Scientific Method search for evidence indicating the idea is incorrect. Falsification, instead of verification.

    The philosophy behind this methodology is basically "It is impossible to know everything; therefore, we cannot ever know anything for certain."
    This is demonstrated time and again in the real world, as new discoveries or observations overturn previously held theories--or should overturn them(Gobekli Tepe is an example of something that should have overturned theories, but so far, hasn't).

    So the Scientific Method directs us to identify what is wrong rather than what is right, the idea being that if we can't nail down the truth, we can at least attempt to approach it by identifying what is false.
     
  18. north

    north Member

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    Followers of scientism prefer to conflate science with truth.

    The acceptance that scientific knowledge is relative and provisional, as shown by history and philosophy, is not widespread.
     
  19. Given the FBI cover-up of the Las Vegas attack and the revelations of the FBI use of fake data to get a surveillance warrant on Trump for political purposes, I am much more open to the idea that the government deliberately kept their hands off the terrorists who were reported to be training as pilots under suspicious circumstances.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/18/u...ew-for-years-about-terror-pilot-training.html
    The F.B.I. had been aware for several years that Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network were training pilots in the United States and elsewhere around the world, according to court records and interviews at flight schools and with federal law enforcement officials.
    And there is also this:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/g...n-your-hands-while-i-got-shot/article/2621121

    Garland terror victim to FBI: Did you sit on your hands while I got shot?
    by Todd Shepherd | Apr 24, 2017

    A man shot in the leg during a 2015 terrorist attack is pushing the FBI to explain why one of its agents was at the scene and did nothing, and if the agent was filming the incident for the terrorists as part of his undercover work of trying to infiltrate the group.
    ...
    But in the last few weeks, it became clear that in the car immediately behind Simpson and Soofi was an undercover FBI agent, who was also taking pictures of the scene just seconds before they opened fire. Once the shots were fired, the undercover FBI agent tried to flee the scene, according to a recent report by 60 Minutes.

    Revelations through court proceedings have also shown that the agent was undercover and in contact with Simpson for several weeks leading up to the attack. At one point a few weeks before the attack, the agent had texted Simpson the message, "Tear up Texas."
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
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  20. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Member

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    17 years ago when 9/11 happened most people simply could not believe the FBI was this corrupt.

    Thank goodness the Truth is coming out.
     

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