Where do bad folks go when they die? ("Bad People" NDE Talk)

#1
Just popping in after my last thread on STEs, not to be confused with STIs or STDs. :D And a hearty thanks to those who contributed there. I haven't been on since I asked... gotta get into that thread again.

I'm currently watching the documentary series "The Keepers" and am astonished at the outright brutality the priests engaged in toward the Catholic school girls that were attending their school. For those unfamiliar with the series, and who have stomachs for confronting the potential awfulness of the human spirit, I commend you to watching it. As humans, we can know great heights - but we can sink to unimaginable depths, too.

Can anyone point me to an EXTENSIVE list of NDEs compiled about those we might simplistically label "bad people"? I'm talking about serial killers, intentional murderers, rapists, child molesters, wife beaters, KKK/neo-nazi hate crime committers, psychopaths, sociopaths, child sex slave sellers, etc.

I've got a book called "The Handbook to the Afterlife" by Pamela Rae Heath and Jon Klimo (the channeling guy) who give all kinds of accounts of terrible afterlife experiences for mere suicides of depressed people. The descriptions in that book seem to vary significantly from other sources I've encountered (aside from Rawlings the fundamentalist medical doctor).

I imagine this has been discussed before. But, I'd like to either come upon or develop an outright compendium of knowledge on this specific subject. I have Nancy Evans Bush's books and know about her views - I want nitty gritty specifics.

In "The Keepers" we have two "men of the cloth" pretending to be spokesmen for God and turning around and repeatedly raping and humiliating young girls, often conducting their rapes under the guise of bestowing the Eucharist or imparting the Holy Spirit into these children and apparently feeling not an ounce of remorse over it. The level of depravity in these men is astonishing. Additionally, their commitment to continuing these acts and the zest they bring to what they do makes it all the more horrifying and awful. As a psychologist who has worked in a prison, I have met these kinds of individuals up close and know what they're like.

So, beyond mere philosophizing or extrapolating from what we think we know, are there any resources out there that get at the "raw data" so to speak of what these people encounter when they are near-death?

Thanks for any tips!
 
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Sciborg_S_Patel

#2
There have been NDEs involving hellish experiences but from outright criminals like this...that I'm not sure of.

It does make you wonder why God doesn't bother doing anything when such horrendous crimes are done in Its name....just how worthless is this entity people pledge their loyalty to...
 
#3
I think terrifying suicide NDEs are just a scare tactic, society has huge prejudice against suicide for some reason. There's no way a god with unconditional love will do that to the suiciders, unless they did it without a good reason (like to hurt those around them, suicide when their life is bearable etc).
 
S

Sciborg_S_Patel

#4
I think terrifying suicide NDEs are just a scare tactic, society has huge prejudice against suicide for some reason. There's no way a god with unconditional love will do that to the suiciders, unless they did it without a good reason (like to hurt those around them, suicide when their life is bearable etc).
Ok but by this line every aspect of the NDE can be a tactic? In fact historically when you look at NDEs touting Pure Land Buddhism that's exactly what seemed to function as.

Perhaps it's best to make another thread but I also wonder what this God of unconditional love is up to that it can't be bothered to set right things in this world.
 
#5
My beliefs of the afterlife are based on extensive readings of reports by NDErs and statements by evidential mediums.

Suicide and the Afterlife.
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/suicide

In the vast majority of cases, people kill themselves due to abnormal brain chemistry.

Spirits who need healing or other types of help when they cross over get the help they need in the afterlife.

Someone who is grieving for a suicide victim, or a suicide victim who has just crossed over, needs to understand there is no special punishment assigned to suicide victims in the afterlife.

Someone who is contemplating suicide needs to understand that suicide won't solve anything because you are an immortal spirit and it is impossible to really kill yourself. Furthermore, you can't escape the consequences of your actions by killing yourself.

Here are excerpts from someone who had an NDE after attempting suicide:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/suicide03.html
"I came into the presence of a brilliant, wonderfully warm and loving Light. While I was in the presence of this Light I was shown a review of my life and all the events that brought me to that point."
...
"I was given the choice of remaining with the light, provided I return later to the physical world and experience all that brought me to the point of shooting myself, or I could return now and pick up my life where it was. I was told that I would eventually have the family and love I so desperately yearned for."
The link at the top of the quote includes supporting excerpts from books by evidential mediums John Edward and George Anderson

In the afterlife, people go to places where there are other people that have a similar mind set. This is enforced by natural law more than by judgement. But the result is that nasty people who like to be cruel find themselves together and it is not a pleasant situation. They stay there only until they recognize their mental outlook is problematic for them. Then they get help needed to rise to higher levels.

For more information see:

What is it like in the afterlife?
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/p/articles-and-links-arranged-by-subject.html#articles_by_subject_like

Articles specifically about the "lower regions":

"You Can Do No Wrong." What does that mean?
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2013/08/you-can-do-no-wrong-what-does-that-mean.html

What happens when we die? A conversation about fear of death.
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2014/04/what-happens-when-we-die-conversation.html
 
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#6
Can anyone point me to an EXTENSIVE list of NDEs compiled about those we might simplistically label "bad people"? I'm talking about serial killers, intentional murderers, rapists, child molesters, wife beaters, KKK/neo-nazi hate crime committers, psychopaths, sociopaths, child sex slave sellers, etc.
I am not aware of any such compilation. I'm not sure how you could go about making one. And would you trust the statements of such people?


I've got a book called "The Handbook to the Afterlife" by Pamela Rae Heath and Jon Klimo (the channeling guy) who give all kinds of accounts of terrible afterlife experiences for mere suicides of depressed people. The descriptions in that book seem to vary significantly from other sources I've encountered (aside from Rawlings the fundamentalist medical doctor).
Does Dr. Jon Kilmo work with "channelers" who routinely provide verifiable information about the deceased to prove they are reliable? Unless they do, there is no way to assess the reliability of their statements and no way to assess the reliability of Kilmo's work. Just because someone has a Dr. in front of their name does not mean they are reliable. John Edward, and evidential medium, is more reliable telling you about your deceased relatives than the average scientist is in telling you about his own research. You have to understand the source of the evidence and judge the reliability yourself.

And you have to consider each case by itself. There might be different explanations for different cases, some might be nasty people who are naturally drawn to unpleasant regions (see my previous post), some might be taken on a tour of the afterlife and see unpleasant regions, etc.

If the "Handbook" gives the name of the person, I would try to find corroborating accounts on the Internet.
 
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#7
Ok but by this line every aspect of the NDE can be a tactic? In fact historically when you look at NDEs touting Pure Land Buddhism that's exactly what seemed to function as.

Perhaps it's best to make another thread but I also wonder what this God of unconditional love is up to that it can't be bothered to set right things in this world.
There aren't enough suicide NDE reports to overcome possible "cover up". The main aspect of NDEs are far too common for a cover up, i.e. anecdotal evidence in the masses will eliminate cover up/fraud. I wish veridical perception with 3rd party verification is as common as NDEs themselves.
 
#8
I don't think we should conflate scary NDE with suicide NDE. Some scary NDEs come to quite gentle people entering a natural death due to illness/old age. One might speculate that it is more of an initial disorientation in the first moments, though the sense of time tends to differ to our Earthly understanding of time.

Suicide NDE - well, I wouldn't want to generalise, they surely vary, just as other NDEs vary. Though generally (I said I wouldn't, but I will) they tend to reduce the likelihood of further attempts, not through fear or terror, but because like other NDErs, the person comes to an understanding of a sense of purpose, and an adjusted perspective, and a sense of both being valued and loved.

But none of this refers to the original question particularly. That's something I don't have a great deal to say about, since few NDE accounts come from those who would fit in that category. And if they did, we might or might not necessarily trust them.

Actually, I think the question, "Where do bad folks go when they die?" might be better addressed by some other approach than NDE reports, which I would suggest don't tell us much on the matter.
 
#14
I think terrifying suicide NDEs are just a scare tactic, society has huge prejudice against suicide for some reason. There's no way a god with unconditional love will do that to the suiciders, unless they did it without a good reason (like to hurt those around them, suicide when their life is bearable etc).
Hm I am not so sure. There are definitely quite a few purported after-death communications that talk about the consequences of suicide. I haven't read any that described the person being in any kind of 'hell' as such, however if they are correct, it does seem that suicide, as with the taking of any life, results in some difference to the post mortem experience for that person. The impression I get is that the consequences depend on the motivation for the act. I don't get the impression from my reading that the situation is permanent though it often seems unpleasant. I haven't read of anyone being 'punished' per se but more that they face the natural outcome of the decision they have made.
 
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#15
I haven't read of anyone being 'punished' per se but more that they face the natural outcome of the decision they have made.
In a way, this reflects on much of life, even while we are living.

Recently I heard an account (not involving an NDE or anything like that) of someone attempting suicide by jumping from a bridge. Right up to the event, he was fully committed to carrying out the act. But at the very moment that his fingers left contact with the bridge, he was immediately aware that it wasn't what he really wanted, he recognised it was a mistake.

What I found curious about that account was the timing. There wasn't some mystical other-worldly encounter, nor any prolonged period of reflection or debate. It was simply the acknowledgement that moment of committing to a decision immediately sets us on a new path, one which was different to the path we were on an instant earlier.

I've certainly had experiences like that. Completely unrelated to suicide or anything of the sort. But the moment of selecting a particular action brings a new path into being.
 
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#16
In a way, this reflects on much of life, even while we are living.

Recently I heard an account (not involving an NDE or anything like that) of someone attempting suicide by jumping from a bridge. Right up to the event, he was fully committed to carrying out the act. But at the very moment that his fingers left contact with the bridge, he was immediately aware that it wasn't what he really wanted, he recognised it was a mistake.

What I found curious about that account was the timing. There wasn't some mystical other-worldly encounter, nor any prolonged period of reflection or debate. It was simply the acknowledgement that moment of committing to a decision immediately sets us on a new path, one which was different to the path we were on an instant earlier.

I've certainly had experiences like that. Completely unrelated to suicide or anything of the sort. But the moment of selecting a particular action brings a new path into being.
I think that's a very interesting observation Typoz.

Also, it occurs to me that, assuming we survive physical death, and if so, that it is true that one minute after death, in terms of personality and mindset, we're the same as one minute before death, then it seems to me that if we're confused or frightened and see no way out of our situation but suicide, there must be a possibility that our mindset and mental state will persist, at least for a time, after we take our own life.
 
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#17
Recently I heard an account (not involving an NDE or anything like that) of someone attempting suicide by jumping from a bridge. Right up to the event, he was fully committed to carrying out the act. But at the very moment that his fingers left contact with the bridge, he was immediately aware that it wasn't what he really wanted, he recognised it was a mistake.
Reading this reminded me of something I'd read about jumping off a bridge in the US, how those that survived felt the same thing exactly the moment that it was too late. I don't know if it was the bridge that I read about before, but this was the first thing I found in Google.

http://abc7news.com/society/second-chances-i-survived-jumping-off-the-golden-gate-bridge/2010562/
 
#19
Thanks! I've now read it fully.

I see what you mean about Pure Land Buddhist NDEs seeming to serve a tactical purpose. And if that's the case for those NDEs, why not for modern, Western NDEs which feature a being of bright light who (apparently) emanates unconditional love? Maybe, coming from a Gnostic perspective, this is a tactic to divert attention from both the existence and implications of evil in the world: "Hey, it's OK, everything will be fine in the end, there's really a Good Guy in complete charge".
 
#20
Hey, it's OK, everything will be fine in the end, there's really a Good Guy in complete charge".
But that isn't the message of Western NDEs.


There is often an encounter with a being of light, who emanates great love. But such beings don't typically claim either that they themselves are God, nor that they themselves are in complete charge.

I'm not sure whether perhaps you are overlaying your own beliefs or even the opposite of what you believe, in the process of reading Western NDEs. Or maybe you are making a reference to something else and I completely missed the point.
 
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