Mod+ Why Do So Many Abductions Seem Like OBEs?

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chuck.drake

#1
Anyone with a passing familiarity with both the OBE and alien abduction phenomenas can't help but be struck with some of the areas where the two experiences converge:

1. They frequently happen while in bed.
2. Vibrations that are felt in the body are frequently reported in both experiences.
3. Many instances of both experiences begin with exiting the house by passing through walls or closed windows.

And there are lots of other similarities.

What I am not saying--I'm not saying that all abduction experiences happen while in bed. Obviously there are many that are reported while in the woods or while driving, etc. But the vast majority do begin from the bedroom.

This is a MOD+ thread, so this thread isn't intended to debate proof of the existence of UFOs.
 
#2
"the vast majority do begin from the bedroom

Do you have accurate data to back that claim? Unless you do it suggests that you're bending facts to fit your preconceptions. I think a more accurate place to start would be discussing why "many abduction experiences seem to have some similarities with many OBEs"
 
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chuck.drake

#3
"the vast majority do begin from the bedroom

Do you have accurate data to back that claim? Unless you do it suggests that you're bending facts to fit your preconceptions. I think a more accurate place to start would be discussing why "many abduction experiences seem to have some similarities with many OBEs"
OK. A whole lot of them start from the bedroom. How about that?
 
#4
OK. A whole lot of them start from the bedroom. How about that?
Better.lol. But it still seems to miss the point . Does bedroom have some special significance to you? Or are you more interested in looking at the ways in which there are similarities in some of the experiences?

BTW I hope you see that all these threads you're starting are motivated by your belief that contact/abductee experiences are not physical happenings?
 
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chuck.drake

#5
Better.lol. But it still seems to miss the point . Does bedroom have some special significance to you? Or are you more interested in looking at the ways in which there are similarities in some of the experiences?

BTW I hope you see that all these threads you're starting are motivated by your belief that contact/abductee experiences are not physical happenings?
Nope. I think it would be short-sighted to disregard the fact that many, many experiences start either from sleep in the bedroom, or after waking in the bedroom (which may possibly be in some cases a false awakening) or when laying down for a nap. This is undeniable. We can't deny that fact. It doesn't take much reading or listening to experiencers speak to realize that many experiences start in these places. So it doesn't have a special significance, but it is the area that I wanted to focus on in this thread.

Well, I am quite sure that some contact experiences are physical happenings. I'm quite positive of that. But I also think that many of the contact/abduction experiences happen in the same "zone" where OBEs take place. In my mind that is non-physical reality.

What I am trying to understand is what are the linkages between the two phenomena. I fully accept the validity of both the OBE as a means for consciousness to travel into the non-physical, and the validity of the contact/abductee cases in general.

The mythology thread in no way says that the experience is not a real one. I don't see a contemporary mythology as somehow excluding the very real experiences of the people who are interacting with the other.
 
#6
1. They frequently happen while in bed.
2. Vibrations that are felt in the body are frequently reported in both experiences.
3. Many instances of both experiences begin with exiting the house by passing through walls or closed windows.
There are quite a few that actually do report being separated from their bodies by the aliens during the abducton process, which really, really starts to sound like an OBE! It also makes one wonder how physical the abduction process is too.

That being said, there are also a few cases where third parties have noted the physical absence of folks during the time they were supposedly abducted.

So, hard to know what to make of it all!
 
#7
Well, I am quite sure that some contact experiences are physical happenings. I'm quite positive of that. But I also think that many of the contact/abduction experiences happen in the same "zone" where OBEs take place. In my mind that is non-physical reality.

What I am trying to understand is what are the linkages between the two phenomena. I fully accept the validity of both the OBE as a means for consciousness to travel into the non-physical, and the validity of the contact/abductee cases in general.
I'm always a little hesitant to use the contrast of physical vs nonphysical. I think it's more of a contnuum, where matter is perhaps a very dense, or "crystallized", form of energy and consciousnss is a very subtle, etheral type of energy. One thing you often hear is that the aliens are less densely emboided than we are and more in contact with the source (of consciousness), meaning they are a little further on that side of the continuum, both in their level of physical manifestation and in their level of awareness. Also, even a neutrino (something material) can pass through a light year of lead before becoming encumbered and interacting with the lead. Could it be possible that consciosness is something so subtle that it can get by with hardly interacting with the physical? Or, having subtle interactions with matter where needed (in the brain), or desired (like in PK)
 
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chuck.drake

#8
I'm always a little hesitant to use the contrast of physical vs nonphysical. I think it's more of a contnuum, where matter is perhaps a very dense, or "crystallized", form of energy and consciousnss is a very subtle, etheral type of energy. One thing you often hear is that the aliens are less densely emboided than we are and more in contact with the source (of consciousness), meaning they are a little further on that side of the continuum, both in their level of physical manifestation and in their level of awareness. Also, even a neutrino (something material) can pass through a light year of lead before becoming encumbered and interacting with the lead. Could it be possible that consciosness is something so subtle that it can get by with hardly interacting with the physical? Or, having subtle interactions with matter where needed (in the brain), or desired (like in PK)
I definitely buy into the idea of the continuum. Especially considering ideas regarding the Imaginal as a liminal realm between the physical and non-physical.
 
#9
I definitely buy into the idea of the continuum. Especially considering ideas regarding the Imaginal as a liminal realm between the physical and non-physical.
Exactly. Seems like it's implied by Idealism too, as talked about by guys like Bernardo Kastrup. Although I like how David Bailey points out that Dualism (physical vs nonphysical, matter vs spirit) is a limiting view that can fall out of Idealism, kind of like Netwonian physics falls out of Relativity.

Actually, one of the cooler interpretations of UFOs, which could also be applied to the abduction experience, was by Bernardo using Idealism.


If this view has any validity, it also just goes to show how important the mythological dimension is here. Also, "traveling through mind", as he talks about it in the video, gives things like OBEs a whole new spin!
 
#10
Exactly. Seems like it's implied by Idealism too, as talked about by guys like Bernardo Kastrup. Although I like how David Bailey points out that Dualism (physical vs nonphysical, matter vs spirit) is a limiting view that can fall out of Idealism, kind of like Netwonian physics falls out of Relativity.

Actually, one of the cooler interpretations of UFOs, which could also be applied to the abduction experience, was by Bernardo using Idealism.


If this view has any validity, it also just goes to show how important the mythological dimension is here. Also, "traveling through mind", as he talks about it in the video, gives things like OBEs a whole new spin!
What I was going to say before I read this post is that the more you move toward spirit the more the power intent has. Uggh...how esoteric that sounds! Uncrystallised or less crystallized "energy" is more malleable by the human mind. At least that's my experience.
 
#11
Exactly. Seems like it's implied by Idealism too, as talked about by guys like Bernardo Kastrup. Although I like how David Bailey points out that Dualism (physical vs nonphysical, matter vs spirit) is a limiting view that can fall out of Idealism, kind of like Netwonian physics falls out of Relativity.

Actually, one of the cooler interpretations of UFOs, which could also be applied to the abduction experience, was by Bernardo using Idealism.


If this view has any validity, it also just goes to show how important the mythological dimension is here. Also, "traveling through mind", as he talks about it in the video, gives things like OBEs a whole new spin!
Truly fascinating thought experiment. I encourage everyone to have a listen to Bernardo's take on this phenomena, and his brief outline and take on the Idealist model of reality. Very refreshing thinking. Thanks Ethan for posting the Video.

P.S. I didn't understand what you meant by Dualism falling out of Idealism. Maybe I missunderstand, but one does not necessarily imply the other.
 
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chuck.drake

#12
Exactly. Seems like it's implied by Idealism too, as talked about by guys like Bernardo Kastrup. Although I like how David Bailey points out that Dualism (physical vs nonphysical, matter vs spirit) is a limiting view that can fall out of Idealism, kind of like Netwonian physics falls out of Relativity.

Actually, one of the cooler interpretations of UFOs, which could also be applied to the abduction experience, was by Bernardo using Idealism.


If this view has any validity, it also just goes to show how important the mythological dimension is here. Also, "traveling through mind", as he talks about it in the video, gives things like OBEs a whole new spin!
As usual, Bernardo completely kicks it! I wish I had 1/4 of the intellect. Sigh. But intelligence isn't everything. Must remember that.

Anyway. That video basically encapsulates how I think about this whole thing.

It killed me when he said they had developed "Technologies that allow them to travel in mind."

So I hate to start to handle the whole idea with my grubby paws, but it makes you wonder if "they" don't approach folks intentionally while the Earthling's consciousness is already in the non-physical. It may just be a matter of ease. It might be much more difficult for them to enter into the "shared timeline" of someone who is awake and whose mind is fully engaged. A human at the border of sleep or who is actually asleep is much more susceptible. Also, while driving, when the mind so often enters a kind of hypnotic state. One wonders if maybe it isn't a bit like fishing for them. They might enter into this consensual space-time region with the intention of interaction, but at times they just can't find any receptive minds. I'm rambling. Thinking aloud.

But you are right, Ethan, in that the idea does bring OBEs into a new light as well. Not that they are a technology that allows us to travel in mind, but that the OBE is a state of consciousness that allows us to travel in mind.

Lots to think about on this. Thanks for posting it. I need to get back to Bernardo's site more regularly. I put that book on inter-library loan. Looking forward to that.
 
#13
What I was going to say before I read this post is that the more you move toward spirit the more the power intent has. Uggh...how esoteric that sounds! Uncrystallised or less crystallized "energy" is more malleable by the human mind. At least that's my experience.
That's pretty much how I view it. It's also why I don't like the whole physical vs non-physical debate. I lean towards viewing "physical" as crystallized energy, or a denser embodiment/manifestation of energy, and consciousness as a more rarefied, ethereal form of energy. But, it's all energy, the highest and most powerful form being perhaps, Love. That's also why I don't like the whole materialism debate. Basically, materialists claim everything is made up of matter and energy. So, this means materialists have a narrow view of what "energy" really is, imho, and then proponents have to come up with something that is beyond energy, which I'm not sure is possible. So, the debate has been set up in a way neither side can win, leaving us with incessant debate that never ends.
 
#14
P.S. I didn't understand what you meant by Dualism falling out of Idealism. Maybe I missunderstand, but one does not necessarily imply the other.
Glad you guys like that video. I probably watch it once a month :)

This video might help with the Dualism/Idealism thing:

http://www.skeptiko.com/forum/threads/do-we-create-what-we-see.163/page-4#post-2541

If the whirlpools truly understand their fundamental nature, they know they are water, as does everything else have the nature of water. One whirlpool would not view themselves as separate from another whirlpool and they would see the medium of water that connects all existence. This would be equivalent to us recognizing everything is consciousness, or that all is One.

But, if the whirlpools lose their connection to the medium of water by losing awareness of it, they will forget they are fundamentally water (like we have forgotten we are fundamentally spirit). Other whirlpools will start to be viewed as others via a state of disconnect. They will feel cut off from everything and descend into dualism, where whirlpool and water (matter and spirit) become absolute opposites.

Anyhow, hopefully that goofy explanation helps ;-)

EDIT: The whirlpool analogy comes from the video.
 
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#15
That's pretty much how I view it. It's also why I don't like the whole physical vs non-physical debate. I lean towards viewing "physical" as crystallized energy, or a denser embodiment/manifestation of energy, and consciousness as a more rarefied, ethereal form of energy. But, it's all energy, the highest and most powerful form being perhaps, Love. That's also why I don't like the whole materialism debate. Basically, materialists claim everything is made up of matter and energy. So, this means materialists have a narrow view of what "energy" really is, imho, and then proponents have to come up with something that is beyond energy, which I'm not sure is possible. So, the debate has been set up in a way neither side can win, leaving us with incessant debate that never ends.
I agree. Its why despite all the progress science has made, this shift is so hugely difficult. They've been thinking this way for 400 years or so. But in other places they are not so constrained. We in the west are stuck (we being the scientific community). The break out is happening in places like China, as I've mentioned. Nations have their turns at being leaders and playing catch up. The west will have to play catch up.

Many people have trouble conceptually with homoeopathy but within this paradigm the point of view you described is embraced and kinda calibrated. I know by how the remedy is made how ethereal the energy is, and how it will impact therapeutically if correctly prescribed.
 
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chuck.drake

#16
I agree. Its why despite all the progress science has made, this shift is so hugely difficult. They've been thinking this way for 400 years or so. But in other places they are not so constrained. We in the west are stuck (we being the scientific community). The break out is happening in places like China, as I've mentioned. Nations have their turns at being leaders and playing catch up. The west will have to play catch up.

Many people have trouble conceptually with homoeopathy but within this paradigm the point of view you described is embraced and kinda calibrated. I know by how its made how ethereal the energy is and how it will impact therapeutically if correctly prescribed.
Jules. Do you have any information about the kind of stuff going on in China?
 
#17
Jules. Do you have any information about the kind of stuff going on in China?
Hi Chuck.

Start with Luc Montagnier and his work on the memory of water. I can send you the research if you can't find it. I'll get back to you with more tomorrow, I have to check the references.
 
#18
Does bedroom have some special significance to you?
Sure does and I would hope it does to you too. ;)

BTW drake I hope you see that all these threads you're starting are motivated by your belief that contact/abductee experiences are not physical happenings?
I'll bet that 3 out of 4 so-called physical alien abductions are nigh word for word to OBEs that I have experienced or more so that others have experienced.

http://www.astralinfo.org/lindemann-interview.html

"I feel that a percentage, which is currently unknown, of people that are having abduction phenomena experiences are actually having OBE’s, and they’re interpreting them as possibly an abduction. This is because they don’t have any other explanation of the phenomena. We live in a culture that is immersed in alien phenomena. It’s become part of the group consciousness. And no other explanation has been offered." ~William Buhlman

Comparing OBEs to Alien Abductions isn't a new idea as Buhlman and Robert Peterson each have chapters in their books many moons past.

http://www.robertpeterson.org/ufoobe.html

Raduga calls OBE's and Alien Abductions, “The Phase". He calls them one thing because he thinks these are all the same basic experience only differing in depth. [ I disagree]

"The abduction experiences begin with a shift in consciousness on the part of the abductee, which may be signaled by a hum or other odd sound, by the appearance of a light for which no usual source can be found, by the sense of a presence or even the sight of one or more alien beings ... or by a strong vibratory sensation in the body ... This change in consciousness may be subtle, but abductees are always sure that they are not dreaming or imagining. Rather they experience that they have moved into another reality, but one that is, nevertheless, altogether real. This is a waking reality, but a different one. As one abductee described this shift to me, is as if the alien beings break through a kind of screen, revealing a new reality to the experiencer." John Mack, M.D., Abduction, Pg 393

Hums, vibrations...classical pre-OBE exit sensations.

"After the initial contact, the abductee is commonly "floated" (the word most commonly used) down the hall, through the wall or windows of the house, or through the roof of the car. They are usually astounded to discover that they are passed through solid objects, experiencing only a slight vibratory sensation."John Mack, M.D., Abduction, Pg 33

OBE. :D
 
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chuck.drake

#19
Sure does and I would hope it does to you too. ;)


I'll bet that 3 out of 4 so-called physical alien abductions are nigh word for word to OBEs that I have experienced or more so that others have experienced.

http://www.astralinfo.org/lindemann-interview.html

"I feel that a percentage, which is currently unknown, of people that are having abduction phenomena experiences are actually having OBE’s, and they’re interpreting them as possibly an abduction. This is because they don’t have any other explanation of the phenomena. We live in a culture that is immersed in alien phenomena. It’s become part of the group consciousness. And no other explanation has been offered." ~William Buhlman

Comparing OBEs to Alien Abductions isn't a new idea as Buhlman and Robert Peterson each have chapters in their books many moons past.

http://www.robertpeterson.org/ufoobe.html

Raduga calls OBE's and Alien Abductions, “The Phase". He calls them one thing because he thinks these are all the same basic experience only differing in depth. [ I disagree]

"The abduction experiences begin with a shift in consciousness on the part of the abductee, which may be signaled by a hum or other odd sound, by the appearance of a light for which no usual source can be found, by the sense of a presence or even the sight of one or more alien beings ... or by a strong vibratory sensation in the body ... This change in consciousness may be subtle, but abductees are always sure that they are not dreaming or imagining. Rather they experience that they have moved into another reality, but one that is, nevertheless, altogether real. This is a waking reality, but a different one. As one abductee described this shift to me, is as if the alien beings break through a kind of screen, revealing a new reality to the experiencer." John Mack, M.D., Abduction, Pg 393

Hums, vibrations...classical pre-OBE exit sensations.

"After the initial contact, the abductee is commonly "floated" (the word most commonly used) down the hall, through the wall or windows of the house, or through the roof of the car. They are usually astounded to discover that they are passed through solid objects, experiencing only a slight vibratory sensation."John Mack, M.D., Abduction, Pg 33

OBE. :D
The Buhlman interview was interesting. Thanks. The only thing that I wonder about is the fact that a lot of times if things get too emotional--you get too scared or too excited in the case of an OBE, most folks will pop "back into their body". Maybe it is different if you are in the middle of a sleep paralysis episode, I'm not sure. So when you read about these long encounters where people are operated on and they go nuts with fear and then the calm down and they have a tour of the ship and the the alien floats them back down to the bed… Maybe they are just natural OBE talents.
 
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