Why............would we do that??

#1
Okay, so there are some really good minds here, and I want to throw something into a sandbox, with a few rules if I may.

As you know, I have a tendency to get upset about the often absurd, seemingly cruel and indifferent, or outright suffersome nature in life. But I get tired of my own thoughts reflecting back at me from the inside of my head all the time, which are to some extent on repeat, so I wanted to pick some other good minds on this, to see what we might be able to come up with, by way of variety. Contributions should be earnest I think, and not flippant. Perhaps it should be a Mod + I don't know. Others can advise me on that...I don't have experience with the category. Anyway, here is the problem statement.

Please assume that the idea of a spiritual purpose to life has some kind of objective reality beyond simply our own psychological responses to a meaningless existence etc. In other words, you must assume a) that we really do have some kind of "conscious existence" or "origin" somewhere that is not simply our life here and b) that we either "came" here or were "forced" to exist here for some reason. That is the rules...please do *not* comment if your comment is simply one or another version of an argument for what I have asked you to disregard.

So the basic question I pose to you, and which I want your thoughts on is...WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?? Why would we come to such a suffersome world? I'm familiar with some of the usual suspect arguments. I don't mind those showing up...but hopefully we can also go beyond them. Anyone is welcome to contribute and I would very much like to see some well thought out contributions from Arouet, Bucky, David, Max, Paul, Laird, Vault, FLS, Jay, Chris, Neil, Malf, Dominic Burrell, E. FLowers, Alkhemist etc (obviously I can't create an exhaustive list). For those of a materialist persuasion, I am asking you to step outside your assumption for this thread to ponder other possibles. Just please remember the rules. We're all intelligent folks, so we can understand those rules and I also am pretty sure that everyone named, and most others besides, must have at least thought about the issue at some point in their lives. Again, my list of names is not exhaustive, just representative of some folks I'd like to see throw their hat in the ring. Once again, please follow the rules.

WHY WOULD WE DO THAT??
Is it possible to come up with plausible answers?

*And: just as an addendum I think I should add, that if we use unusual terms, such as "spiritual evolution," we should attach some kind of specific definition to those terms.
 
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#2
Why wouldn't we?

I think you are presupposing that we would choose an idyllic existence? I would guess that one 'comes' here for a fuller experience, instead. Also...see Paul's sig.

I just finished reading the Orenda, and there was a wonderful line in there which captured my sentiment, but now I can't find it!!! Damn paper books. (I'll keep looking.)

Linda
 
#3
The BIG question, huh? Why.

Hmmm...

I imagine there are a multitude of reasons that may or may not apply to all. I think these would include attainment of knowledge through perspective. To evolve. To experience the physical. To experience death. To experience the threat of death. To experience the separation from self and higher consciousness. To play and have fun (entertainment). To learn/expand/perfect the act of forgiveness.

Attainment of knowledge through perspective: If imagination are the limits of reality, then I think it sufficient to say that there in effect are no limits. If the physical world(s) are created through the conscious mind, or mind at large if you will, then there are no bounds on what kinds of worlds we could create. Form is boundless. But for the sake of brevity if we limit things to *just* this planet, thus physical reality in particular, it doesn't matter how many beings incarnate, nor does it matter how many times one does, the experience would never be repeated. The number of perspectives is limitless, so each being, each second of each lifetime, is creating a new perspective and adding to all others. You could place 100 different individuals in the same place, at the same time, have them see, hear and feel the exact same moment in time and you will get 100 different perspectives on an event. Multiply this by infinity. This literally could go on endlessly, and I don't think you would ever get an exact match. Ever. So the mind at large, evolves continuously in this way. Evolution meaning becoming greater in some aspect. To what end, I don't know. I get stuck there. Maybe there is no end. Maybe there is no purpose beyond that.

To experience the physical: if we are "pure" consciousness, where form is created from consciousness but not its "natural" state, then experiencing having a physical body, with limitations could be seen as some kind of challenge. Maybe it is to taste, feel and see in a novel way. Maybe we do it for the sex and donuts. Perhaps we create the physical, then occupy it in a sense, because it is a skill we practice. Maybe there are implications to this far beyond what we can imagine.

To experience death: with the "veil" in place, we have lost the ability to know our true nature as infinite consciousness. I see this as akin to why we play video games, watch movies and television and read books. For some of us it is role playing games. All of these we created to experience something that is outside of normal reality. We can become whoever we want to become. We can be the hero, the warrior, the seductress, the villain, a superhero or a witch, replete with magical powers and everything. And we do this in what we know is a safe environment. We know our avatar in the video game isn't really going to die, nor do you really kill all of those people or monsters. But it feels real in a sense, and allows us to experience something we couldn't otherwise. And we know we are safe doing it. So this life could be the same. We come to be whoever we want to be. The hero, the villain, the liar, the guru. And it all seems so exciting and important because we forget, we cannot die. It ups the adrenaline factor. And in the end we think we are dying, only to find that we can't. And what a rush, huh?! Maybe we are near death junkies. Maybe it serves a purpose to not take our eternal nature for granted. So we are eternal beings playing a game. In which we invented games to play within the game, which in some of those games are games within the game. How very meta of us! Not unlike a fractal.

To experience the separation from the higher self: I think this goes along with the whole experience thing. Again, perhaps it's part of a challenge. Purposefully tying our spiritual arms behind our backs, to hone other skills and devise novel ways of
working through things.

To play and have fun: this ties into the whole video game/movie/entertainment notion. Plus being insanely rich must really be an interesting experience. Maybe that is the experience. Maybe Kim Kardashian seems useless and superficial, but maybe that was her purpose. Maybe she came here just to be rich, superficial and screw around. Hell, we have eternity, maybe some lifetimes are just throw aways. A vacation of sorts or something.

To learn/expand/perfect the act of forgiveness: this is where the idea of suffering really comes into play. But really, it brings together all of the above ideas as well. If our true nature is one of love and understanding (NDEs strongly hint at this where themes of love, compassion, unspoken understand and bliss are very common) then perhaps stepping outside of that environment into this incredibly harsh physical one lends itself well to the development of a skill, and an important one at that, that is otherwise difficult to attain. We suffer to gain understanding and perspective. To learn what it means to love in the face of extreme hardship and adversity. Perhaps this one thing is so important because all things lead to it and it leads to all things. The expansion, evolution and understanding of the mind at large. When viewed in this light, horrible acts take on a different form. It is an opportunity for us to to grow and become something more, something greater. it takes the seemingly meaningless and unnecessary and makes it meaningful and necessary. If you look back at all of our most trying times as a species or as an individual being, the greatest growth occurs in the face of adversity. Humanity has evolved not in spite of these things, but because of them. And our consciousness evolves along with it. Ever expanding and gaining perspective. Becoming more.
 
#4
WHY WOULD WE DO THAT??
Is it possible to come up with plausible answers?
Maybe.
These questions have been explored for thousands of years and, within the limits of our comprehension, we might have some insight.

I suspect we don't choose or decide so much about coming here but we're more subject to some sort of "cosmic law" (call it karma if you wish, I don't have a favorite label). Just like as young toddlers we don't have the ability to choose our clothes, or decide what to eat. We have needs but we're subject to restrictions and lack of development so what we "choose" depends on factors that aren't much under our direct control.

One of the books that directly tackles this issue of "why would we do that" is Michael Newton's "Journey of Souls", which incidentally is the book with which I have struggled the most. (But I'd recommend it to anyone nonetheless).

The first read left me very perplexed... I stopped halfway in a state of puzzlement and irritation. It just seemed too much, too easy, all figured out. Didn't feel right. I even spent quite some time searching for all possible debunking sources to find confirmation that what I was reading was more of a work of new age fiction than anything else. Didn't find much consolation on that front either :)

A year later I started it from scratch, promising to withhold any judgement until I finished it.
Why am I mentioning this?

Because indeed the book offers some interesting aspects of the story (the "why would we do that") that are thought provoking, imo.
Case #20 from the book (p. 124) is an intriguing one: the lady regressed is an example of a "novice soul" who in one of her first lives died very young (a baby) in Syria during a Mongol invasion, around 1260AD

Her "return to the light" is not all rainbows and unicorns. On the other side she's very pissed. She's mad at the world, at the cruelty of her death and those who made her do it, which I found interesting.

You can read the (short) regression here:
https://books.google.it/books?id=Psk6tJq1ybQC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&source=bl#v=onepage&q&f=false

There seem to be some level of choice and impulse to come to this world, but how well informed it is, how clear is the intention depends on factors that Dr Newton sums up as the "Soul Level", which he discusses quite in depth.

In essence this is not very different from what happens here with our desires and aspirations. Often we're unable to fully predict the pros and cons of our choices but at the same time we feel compelled to take a certain course of action, even if in hindsight we may regret it.

It seems like when we cross over the so-called "life review" allows us to examine our "lessons" from a broader perspective, having taken off our human "outfit". A perspective that involves all the other participants in our actions.

From there new desires and intentions arise and we keep "creating karma" by planting new seeds of experience. And this is not different from what happens in the physical. We have experiences, learn something from each of them and move on to new ones.

Of course horrible experiences such as violence, cruelties, war... can act in a much stronger and broader way, affecting potentially many generations of souls/people. It's usually referred to as family karma or even national karma.

I hardly think this is sufficient to tell us "why would we do that", it's probably just scratching the surface.
I think the visions and experiences of mystics, monks and other investigators of "higher realites" provide us with some intuitions of what is immediately next, what lies beyond the threshold. Similarly the experiences of NDErs and astral travelers seem to support those same intuitions. Contradictions seem to abound too, although I suspect it's just a matter of a vast amount of possibilities rather than real inconsistencies.

We'd like simple answers, with every piece falling into place and making sense.

As you (Kai) have said somewhere else we might very well be in the same position of our body cells asking themselves "why would they do that" and struggling with a final answer.

I ultimately subscribe to some kind of philosophical mysterianism as I don't think we're in a position to get to those ultimate answers. I feel our mind is too small to even grasp a fraction of such answer... but some intuitions in the right direction, that I think it is possible.

cheers
 
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#6
Okay, so there are some really good minds here, and I want to throw something into a sandbox, with a few rules if I may.

As you know, I have a tendency to get upset about the often absurd, seemingly cruel and indifferent, or outright suffersome nature in life. But I get tired of my own thoughts reflecting back at me from the inside of my head all the time, which are to some extent on repeat, so I wanted to pick some other good minds on this, to see what we might be able to come up with, by way of variety. Contributions should be earnest I think, and not flippant. Perhaps it should be a Mod + I don't know. Others can advise me on that...I don't have experience with the category. Anyway, here is the problem statement.

Please assume that the idea of a spiritual purpose to life has some kind of objective reality beyond simply our own psychological responses to a meaningless existence etc. In other words, you must assume a) that we really do have some kind of "conscious existence" or "origin" somewhere that is not simply our life here and b) that we either "came" here or were "forced" to exist here for some reason. That is the rules...please do *not* comment if your comment is simply one or another version of an argument for what I have asked you to disregard.

So the basic question I pose to you, and which I want your thoughts on is...WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?? Why would we come to such a suffersome world? I'm familiar with some of the usual suspect arguments. I don't mind those showing up...but hopefully we can also go beyond them. Anyone is welcome to contribute and I would very much like to see some well thought out contributions from Arouet, Bucky, David, Max, Paul, Laird, Vault, FLS, Jay, Chris, Neil, Malf, Dominic Burrell, E. FLowers, Alkhemist etc (obviously I can't create an exhaustive list). For those of a materialist persuasion, I am asking you to step outside your assumption for this thread to ponder other possibles. Just please remember the rules. We're all intelligent folks, so we can understand those rules and I also am pretty sure that everyone named, and most others besides, must have at least thought about the issue at some point in their lives. Again, my list of names is not exhaustive, just representative of some folks I'd like to see throw their hat in the ring. Once again, please follow the rules.

WHY WOULD WE DO THAT??
Is it possible to come up with plausible answers?

*And: just as an addendum I think I should add, that if we use unusual terms, such as "spiritual evolution," we should attach some kind of specific definition to those terms.
Private message me if your thread gets derailed. I'll take care of it.
 
#7
I looked into this many years ago and slowly came to some conclusions:
1. Consciousness survives the body and therefore survives all suffering, which reduces suffering to just another experience on an infinite list.
2. We are ruled by our subconsciousness, mostly and the more we know about it and the more effort we put into dealing with it, the more we can change our lives for the better. This is important because the subconscious is all knowing at some ordinarily inaccessible level.
3. Our subconscious is choosing our path for us and is often riddled with beliefs we have about who we are and what we deserve. We can carry this over from other lives before we were born. We don't start with a clean slate.
4. The less mastery you have of yourself, in general, the worse your circumstances will be. "You get what you settle for." Suffering is often about not getting beyond a belief that we can't change our circumstances. And we can always change them, it's changing our thoughts that's hard.
5. The objective to life seems to be to get emotionally and mentally stronger, since this produces better life circumstances and more happiness, although for what overall purpose I cannot say.
 
#8
Hello Kai. I think you're asking the right questions re suffering and choice. I have gone down a similar path. I also find, through reading your Puzzling NDE questions thread, that we agree that pleasure does not require suffering.

In any case, I have come to believe that a metaphysic of ditheistic moral dualism is pretty much the only - but at least the most plausible - way of resolving the problems raised by these sort of questions. Evil and suffering given a good God with good intentions make sense only if God is not (at least for the moment) wholly capable of eradicating them, and if evil has in some sense an existence independent of God. And, as I've made clear in other threads, I have personal experience that not just suffering is real, but that metaphysical evil too is real.

So, to answer your question directly: we are here because we have no real choice in the matter. Reality with a capital R is a war, and in a war, you either fight or you lose. This realm is one of the battlefields. Suffering exists here because it is unavoidable on a battlefield, especially when one of the sides is literally evil.

I know that this raises as many questions as it answers (e.g. how could a world with so much pleasure and recreation really be a battlefield?), and originally I wrote out a lengthy post explaining my position in full, including all of the questions it raises which I have no answer to, but I realised that it would be inappropriate to post it in this thread because it would hijack the thread, so perhaps (especially if anybody seems interested) I will post it as a thread-starter.
 
#11
Hello Kai. I think you're asking the right questions re suffering and choice. I have gone down a similar path. I also find, through reading your Puzzling NDE questions thread, that we agree that pleasure does not require suffering.

In any case, I have come to believe that a metaphysic of ditheistic moral dualism is pretty much the only - but at least the most plausible - way of resolving the problems raised by these sort of questions. Evil and suffering given a good God with good intentions make sense only if God is not (at least for the moment) wholly capable of eradicating them, and if evil has in some sense an existence independent of God. And, as I've made clear in other threads, I have personal experience that not just suffering is real, but that metaphysical evil too is real.

So, to answer your question directly: we are here because we have no real choice in the matter. Reality with a capital R is a war, and in a war, you either fight or you lose. This realm is one of the battlefields. Suffering exists here because it is unavoidable on a battlefield, especially when one of the sides is literally evil.

I know that this raises as many questions as it answers (e.g. how could a world with so much pleasure and recreation really be a battlefield?), and originally I wrote out a lengthy post explaining my position in full, including all of the questions it raises which I have no answer to, but I realised that it would be inappropriate to post it in this thread because it would hijack the thread, so perhaps (especially if anybody seems interested) I will post it as a thread-starter.
What you've written is interesting re: the concept of evil. I'm generally of the mind that evil doesn't really exist. That evil is something we've created out of a misunderstanding of the true representation of reality. Meaning what we discern as evil is the limitations of human consciousness when witnessing things it cannot understand.

However, I understand this also seems incredibly......naive. I'm aware of the horrors "out there" and am truly fortunate to not have witnessed such things first hand (knock on wood!!!!!), and this applies to both the natural and supernatural.

In the interest of not hijacking this thread, could you either link me to your other posts on this subject or start a new thread with your experiences? I would be really interested in hearing about them.
 
#12
Some really interesting and varied answers, which is what I was looking for. Hopefully, there will be more. I don't really want to intervene heavily, first because deconstruction isn't really the point of the thread, and second, because I don't really have a fixed-in-stone view of this anyway. I bat back and forth between different possibilities.

But, for what it's worth, my current thinking is that there is probably a cascade of manifestation from ultimate source, the extreme terminus or "exile" state of which is what we call the physical world. It seems to me possible that this entire cascade somehow has to exist as an inter-related ecology, or else not at all. In other words, subtler worlds or possibilities in some sense need the physical world in order to exist, and vice verse, this world can't exist either without other "levels" in the ecology. With that in mind, then kind of like the duty to man a remote lighthouse station (we must assume that if existence is conscious it cannot be "automated" ;) ) it is understood in some sense that all who share in the foundations of, and the benefits of, the manifestation cascade, must at some point "work the pump house."

With respect to suffering in particular, at the extreme exile terminus of the cascade, the relative presence of the source may be reduced to such a trickle that contrived and artificial side effects come into existence which can "locally" appear to be stronger than source, such as temporariness...the existence of "death." As spiritual "deep sea divers," this might be little more than the fact that (remote from source) our "oxygen supply" is not infinitely extendable. But I glean the suspicion that (again locally) this threat of temporary existence is sensed, and it sets in motion an extreme-slow-lag "manifestation" response, which in this very source-weak environment is constrained to acting over eons, and which creates "adaptations" to offset this threat, including perceptions or behaviors such as a nervous system capable of "pain"...which has no application in a system without a threat of "death." Thus the "evolution" of, fear, pain, selfish acts, violent intent etc, make sense in a "local system" where a survival-threat to one's apparent being seems to exist and is evaluated as "real" within the sensing capabilities of the base energy of that system. In other words, an entire survival matrix has sprung to being as a kind of "immune response" to the separation from source.

As I said though, I certainly don't see this as any more than one among the other ideas that folks have put out above, all of which have their various merits. It just happens to be my current thinking. I could change my mind. I've done it before :D
 
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#13
Some really interesting and varied answers, which is what I was looking for. Hopefully, there will be more. I don't really want to intervene heavily, first because deconstruction isn't really the point of the thread, and second, because I don't really have a fixed-in-stone view of this anyway. I bat back and forth between different possibilities.

But, for what it's worth, my current thinking is that there is probably a cascade of manifestation from ultimate source, the extreme terminus or "exile" state of which is what we call the physical world. It seems to me possible that this entire cascade somehow has to exist as an inter-related ecology, or else not at all. In other words, subtler worlds or possibilities in some sense need the physical world in order to exist, and vice verse, this world can't exist either without other "levels" in the ecology. With that in mind, then kind of like the duty to man a remote lighthouse station (we must assume that if existence is conscious it cannot be "automated" ;) ) it is understood in some sense that all who share in the foundations of, and the benefits of, the manifestation cascade, must at some point "work the pump house."

With respect to suffering in particular, at the extreme exile terminus of the cascade, the relative presence of the source may be reduced to such a trickle that contrived and artificial side effects come into existence which can "locally" appear to be stronger than source, such as temporariness...the existence of "death." As spiritual "deep sea divers," this might be little more than the fact that (remote from source) our "oxygen supply" is not infinitely extendable. But I glean the suspicion that (again locally) this threat of temporary existence is sensed, and it sets in motion an extreme-slow-lag "manifestation" response, which in this very source-weak environment is constrained to acting over eons, and which creates "adaptations" to offset this threat, including perceptions or behaviors such as a nervous system capable of "pain"...which has no application in a system without a threat of "death." Thus the "evolution" of, fear, pain, selfish acts, violent intent etc, make sense in a "local system" where a survival-threat to one's apparent being seems to exist and is evaluated as "real" within the sensing capabilities of the base energy of that system. In other words, an entire survival matrix has sprung to being as a kind of "immune response" to the separation from source.

As I said though, I certainly don't see this as any more than one among the other ideas that folks have put out above, all of which have their various merits. It just happens to be my current thinking. I could change my mind. I've done it before :D
I get the sense that we're all the blind men trying to describe an elephant by only feeling a small part of it. No one is wrong, but no one sees everything either.
 
#14
I would say that each and every one of us are in effect "Creator's in-training". We are in the physical realm for training. How that training goes is entirely up to us. The physical universe I believe is built like a giant mirror. In other words it reflects back in physical circumstances what we are on the inside. Therefore we have war, crime, suffering, natural disasters etc. on this planet because the mass consciousness of those embodied here allow for it. If the mass consciousness begins to become purer the physical universe will in turn begin to reflect better physical circumstances.

Earth I believe has a certain allowable range of consciousness for illustration sake let's call it 100-200 with the mass consciousness at 150. Souls who are at the level 100 are at the lowest level possible to be able to embody here. If they drop down to 99 they can no longer embody here and perhaps have to go to another planet or stay in another realm. Those who go up to 201 have graduated from Earth's school and no longer embody here. If the mass consciousness rises to 160 the range becomes 110-210, if it drops to 140 then the range is 90-190.

So I believe we come here because Earth's range of consciousness is conducive to learning the lessons we need to learn. We all act according to our level of consciousness. In other words Hitler, Mao, and Stalin weren't in reality highly developed spiritual people who just wanted to experience what it's like to be a self-centered psychopath. They were likely on one of the very lowest levels of consciousness allowable on Earth. If we want to live in a world without suffering the best advice I would give is to raise our own consciousness so as to have the choice to embody on a more gentle planet next time.
 

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Nap, interrupted.
Member
#15
One possibility is that we are a simulation and the programmers simply chose to simulate us in this environment.

Another possibility is that an existence without suffering would actually be insufferable. What would we do if everything were perfect? What would we strive for? What problems could we solve? What explorations could we undertake? How would we occupy our endless free time?

My proposal is this: We manifest ourselves in this "materialistic," flawed, nasty world because a perfect world is intolerable. Why did we make this world quite so nasty? I don't know. Perhaps it is a failed experiment from which we cannot yet extract ourselves. Or perhaps we made it so nasty just to see how we would deal with it. Nevertheless, we may be happier in this cruel world than we were in the perfect world.

~~ Paul
 
#17
I would say that each and every one of us are in effect "Creator's in-training". We are in the physical realm for training. How that training goes is entirely up to us. The physical universe I believe is built like a giant mirror. In other words it reflects back in physical circumstances what we are on the inside. Therefore we have war, crime, suffering, natural disasters etc. on this planet because the mass consciousness of those embodied here allow for it. If the mass consciousness begins to become purer the physical universe will in turn begin to reflect better physical circumstances.

Earth I believe has a certain allowable range of consciousness for illustration sake let's call it 100-200 with the mass consciousness at 150. Souls who are at the level 100 are at the lowest level possible to be able to embody here. If they drop down to 99 they can no longer embody here and perhaps have to go to another planet or stay in another realm. Those who go up to 201 have graduated from Earth's school and no longer embody here. If the mass consciousness rises to 160 the range becomes 110-210, if it drops to 140 then the range is 90-190.

So I believe we come here because Earth's range of consciousness is conducive to learning the lessons we need to learn. We all act according to our level of consciousness. In other words Hitler, Mao, and Stalin weren't in reality highly developed spiritual people who just wanted to experience what it's like to be a self-centered psychopath. They were likely on one of the very lowest levels of consciousness allowable on Earth. If we want to live in a world without suffering the best advice I would give is to raise our own consciousness so as to have the choice to embody on a more gentle planet next time.

who are you: Neil bloody Kramer? (smiley-smiley-smiley).

Seriously though, I sort of like that one ErickH.
 
#18
I think for the thought experiment you are referring to voluntarily choosing to be here rather than being sent here.

If we are also assuming that we are eternal (or at least been around a really long time) it makes perfect sense that we would choose to come her as entertainment/challenge etc.

As humans we voluntarily submit to unpleasant circumstances for entertainment purposes, there's no reason to assume that this wouldn't apply to no human entities. It's like the ultimate

Now, aside from entertainment, there might be some practical reasons in terms of "lessons" that we might take from this experience towards our non-earthly selves. I can think of pleasant scenarios where this would take place but I can also imagine plenty of less pleasant scenarios.

I've mentioned this example before: on earth, we often prepare for difficult, unpleasant tasks. We take steps to toughen ourselves up, prepare ourselves for the challenges to come. It is certainly possible that earth is some kind of bootcamp, a tough training experience designed to identify those who will take part in some tougher post-life task.

It might be a kind of broader vocational test, to identify talents to be allocated to a broad spectrum of post-life roles.

Whatever the particular scenario, on the assumption that spiritual entities exist my default is that they are a similar mix of positive and negative traits as we are.

Many people assume that spiritual entities are likely so different from us that we couldn't even contemplate their reasons for doing things. While I think that is possible, I don't make that assumption. I would assume that they are, indeed, more complex than us in their thinking, motives and abilities. That said, I think its just as likely, if not more likely, that our thought capabilities would be along the same lines, if diminished in capacity, as the spiritual beings. This would be the case if our coming here was for entertainment purposes: having certain experiences, playing out certain scenarios - or even learning lessons. Actually, especially so in the case of lessons: if our earth selves are so far below the mental capacities of our spiritual selves, how useful would the lessons be?

I make this assumption even in the case of a Mind-At-Large type entity. Under that scenario if we get a kick out of something, then by necessity so does MAL, given that we're ostensibly a part of MAL in this scenario - this included all the bad stuff we do.

Hope I've gotten at what you're asking for in the OP.
 
#20
A "soul" or personal consciousness I think would have an origin, and there is no choice involved.

If that personal consciousness reincarnates, it is difficult to know what goes on between different lives. Was there really a choice? Or was the personal consciousness just conditioned which results in rebirth? And what is the state of consciousness after death? NDEs suggest that it is clear, but Buddhists in the Book of Bardo say that it can be confusing and almost dream-like. How do we know how we would act or decide anything in such a state?

Why do you choose what you choose in your dreams now? Why aren't all your dreams exclusively full of bliss?
 
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