Woman in a box - a thought experiment.

[Max_B]

This is a little thought experiment I came up with some time ago to help me think about conscious awareness, and how information within the external world is stored, combined and shared.

Woman in a box

A woman called Freda attending hospital for a routine operation is asked to choose a number between 111 – 999, and key it into an electronic device without anyone else seeing, and to also write the number secretly on a card, and seal it inside an envelope. Such that no one other than Freda knows the number. Freda is not told the reason for this.

Freda is then taken into the hospital theater and anaesthetised so as to induce a loss of consciousness. Unknown to Freda, the electronic device into which she entered the number is actually a portable timer, and the number she entered corresponds to the number of seconds that the timer will begin counting down from, once activated. Whilst active, the timer will continue counting down until it reaches zero, at which time it is capable of triggering the activation of any device it is attached to.

Whilst still under aesthetic and unconscious, Freda is put inside a steel container, within which is a self-contained mechanism for releasing a lethal gas. The portable timer is connected to the lethal gas mechanism in such a way that when the timer reaches 000 it will trigger, and the gas will be released. The timer is designed to activate, and remain activated only whilst the container door is sealed. The steel container is closed and sealed, thus the timer begins counting down. As the timer has been set somewhere between 111 seconds and 999 seconds, it is decided that container will be unsealed after 499 seconds, which is around half of the total possible time that the timer could run for.

When we unseal and reopen the container, the gas either will, or will not have been released, and Freda will either be alive, dying, or dead. Those on the outside of the container cannot know exactly when the timer will reach 000. Freda on the inside of the box was alive but totally unconscious, has not been told that her life is at risk, or the significance of the number she chose and entered into the electronic device.

If Freda is dead (or dying) when we unseal and open the container, there would appear to have been a physical/objective event that took place inside the container which killed her, despite her being alive, but totally unconscious. At all times, there was no conscious human presence inside the container who could have had any conscious awareness of these events.

It appears that whether there is, or is not, an observer with conscious awareness of events inside the container, this classical experiment (or any other we propose) will play out as if there was an objective/physical state inside the container, *if* there are any past objective/physical facts (information) available anywhere, or at anytime, which may have a bearing (a correlation) on any classical test set-up we propose.

 

[Michael Larkin]

Sorry Max, but I haven't a clue what you are saying. I read it, and I understood the individual words, but they don't make much sense.

 

[tim]

I've read it three times and still can't find the right end of the stick.

 

[DasMurmeltier]

Is that similar to the schrödingers cat thought experiment? My first thought was that this reminds me a lot of it.

Though tbh, i didnt understand your last section. Can you explain that one please? The one with the coclusions of the whole thing.

 

[malf]

This is a little thought experiment I came up with some time ago to help me think about conscious awareness, and how information within the external world is stored, combined and shared.

Woman in a box

A woman called Freda attending hospital for a routine operation is asked to choose a number between 111 – 999, and key it into an electronic device without anyone else seeing, and to also write the number secretly on a card, and seal it inside an envelope. Such that no one other than Freda knows the number. Freda is not told the reason for this.

Freda is then taken into the hospital theater and anaesthetised so as to induce a loss of consciousness. Unknown to Freda, the electronic device into which she entered the number is actually a portable timer, and the number she entered corresponds to the number of seconds that the timer will begin counting down from, once activated. Whilst active, the timer will continue counting down until it reaches zero, at which time it is capable of triggering the activation of any device it is attached to.

Whilst still under aesthetic and unconscious, Freda is put inside a steel container, within which is a self-contained mechanism for releasing a lethal gas. The portable timer is connected to the lethal gas mechanism in such a way that when the timer reaches 000 it will trigger, and the gas will be released. The timer is designed to activate, and remain activated only whilst the container door is sealed. The steel container is closed and sealed, thus the timer begins counting down. As the timer has been set somewhere between 111 seconds and 999 seconds, it is decided that container will be unsealed after 499 seconds, which is around half of the total possible time that the timer could run for.

When we unseal and reopen the container, the gas either will, or will not have been released, and Freda will either be alive, dying, or dead. Those on the outside of the container cannot know exactly when the timer will reach 000. Freda on the inside of the box was alive but totally unconscious, has not been told that her life is at risk, or the significance of the number she chose and entered into the electronic device.

If Freda is dead (or dying) when we unseal and open the container, there would appear to have been a physical/objective event that took place inside the container which killed her, despite her being alive, but totally unconscious. At all times, there was no conscious human presence inside the container who could have had any conscious awareness of these events.

It appears that whether there is, or is not, an observer with conscious awareness of events inside the container, this classical experiment (or any other we propose) will play out as if there was an objective/physical state inside the container, *if* there are any past objective/physical facts (information) available anywhere, or at anytime, which may have a bearing (a correlation) on any classical test set-up we propose.

A thought experiment to challenge idealism, right?

 

[E.Flowers]

Whoever puts her into the container is already creating a system, which plays out without her intervention because she was not aware. I don't think that he is stating that there is an objective reality per se, but that information related to one system can continue moving down a certain path based on past input. Basically that a system can resolve itself employing prior knowledge.

 

[Max_B]

Is that similar to the schrödingers cat thought experiment? My first thought was that this reminds me a lot of it.

Though tbh, i didnt understand your last section. Can you explain that one please? The one with the coclusions of the whole thing.

Different from the cat experiment... this is just a classical experiment.

Assuming the experimenters stick to the experiment, Freda will / will-not die depending on past information that she stored in the external world.

Information is split between two systems (Freda, and the experimenter) such that neither system can know the outcome.

Yet this hidden information still apparently gets combined in the external world.

Unfortunately one of the possible outcomes is that Freda died before the box was opened. That outcome would apparently be due to past information that Freda herself stored in the external world (represented by the number she keyed into the timer).

 

[Neil]

This is a little thought experiment I came up with some time ago to help me think about conscious awareness, and how information within the external world is stored, combined and shared.

Woman in a box

A woman called Freda attending hospital for a routine operation is asked to choose a number between 111 – 999, and key it into an electronic device without anyone else seeing, and to also write the number secretly on a card, and seal it inside an envelope. Such that no one other than Freda knows the number. Freda is not told the reason for this.

Freda is then taken into the hospital theater and anaesthetised so as to induce a loss of consciousness. Unknown to Freda, the electronic device into which she entered the number is actually a portable timer, and the number she entered corresponds to the number of seconds that the timer will begin counting down from, once activated. Whilst active, the timer will continue counting down until it reaches zero, at which time it is capable of triggering the activation of any device it is attached to.

Whilst still under aesthetic and unconscious, Freda is put inside a steel container, within which is a self-contained mechanism for releasing a lethal gas. The portable timer is connected to the lethal gas mechanism in such a way that when the timer reaches 000 it will trigger, and the gas will be released. The timer is designed to activate, and remain activated only whilst the container door is sealed. The steel container is closed and sealed, thus the timer begins counting down. As the timer has been set somewhere between 111 seconds and 999 seconds, it is decided that container will be unsealed after 499 seconds, which is around half of the total possible time that the timer could run for.

When we unseal and reopen the container, the gas either will, or will not have been released, and Freda will either be alive, dying, or dead. Those on the outside of the container cannot know exactly when the timer will reach 000. Freda on the inside of the box was alive but totally unconscious, has not been told that her life is at risk, or the significance of the number she chose and entered into the electronic device.

If Freda is dead (or dying) when we unseal and open the container, there would appear to have been a physical/objective event that took place inside the container which killed her, despite her being alive, but totally unconscious. At all times, there was no conscious human presence inside the container who could have had any conscious awareness of these events.

It appears that whether there is, or is not, an observer with conscious awareness of events inside the container, this classical experiment (or any other we propose) will play out as if there was an objective/physical state inside the container, *if* there are any past objective/physical facts (information) available anywhere, or at anytime, which may have a bearing (a correlation) on any classical test set-up we propose.

The assumption is that there is zero consciousness in an unconscious person, which I would not make.

 

[Max_B]

A thought experiment to challenge idealism, right?

I'm not very good with those labels... so I couldn't say.

...but if you think about the experiment for a while... Other interesting things pop out...

...like the implications for how and why information put into the external world does / does-not combine, or, how Freda could avoid the risk of death in the first place...

 

[E.Flowers]

The assumption is that there is zero consciousness in an unconscious person, which I would not make.

A fair point, I have seen several cases of people reporting dreams (nothing extraordinary, no OBEs, just dreams) under anesthesia.

 

[Arouet]

Yet this hidden information still apparently gets combined in the external world.

I'm trying to understand what you mean here. As I understand it, by inputting the number Freda is setting a timer. The number isn't really stored, it just starts to count down, similar to setting your microwave.

I'm not disagreeing that information can be stored. I'm trying to figure out what role you suggest information plays here. What would be different if freda wasn't unconcious? wouldn't the timer still have been set? What if the box was see through and people could see in but not get to her?

I think your point is that nothing would be different, but I'm not getting the bigger point here.

 

[Max_B]

I'm trying to understand what you mean here. As I understand it, by inputting the number Freda is setting a timer. The number isn't really stored, it just starts to count down, similar to setting your microwave.

I'm not disagreeing that information can be stored. I'm trying to figure out what role you suggest information plays here. What would be different if freda wasn't unconcious? wouldn't the timer still have been set? What if the box was see through and people could see in but not get to her?

I think your point is that nothing would be different, but I'm not getting the bigger point here.

If you changed the experiment, you would be doing a different experiment?

Depending on the number Freda enters, she can sometimes apparently die without either herself, or anybody else, knowing whether she will die.

Her past secret actions, and the experimenters secret actions seem to get combined in the external world...

The point of keeping Freda unconscious is to remove her awareness of events, and prevent her from altering the course of future events any further, once she has set the number in the timer. I'm trying to link Freda's past action to the outcome.

Dunno if that makes it any clearer for you....

 

[Arouet]

If you changed the experiment, you would be doing a different experiment?

Depending on the number Freda enters, she can sometimes apparently die without either herself, or anybody else, knowing whether she will die.

Her past secret actions, and the experimenters secret actions seem to get combined in the external world...

The point of keeping Freda unconscious is to remove her awareness of events, and prevent her from altering the course of future events any further, once she has set the number in the timer. I'm trying to link Freda's past action to the outcome.

Dunno if that makes it any clearer for you....

I understand that her past action is related to the outcome. She set a timer that is then connected to a gas bomb without realising that that was what she was doing.

But you said this thought experiment was saying something about the role of information. I'm trying to figure out the significance of also writing the number on the card (ie: the storing of the information)? If she set a number < 499 she dies, or is dying. If she sets a number > 499 she lives. Writing the number on the card doesn't seem to play into it?

 

[David Bailey]

I think this gedanken experiment needs to be trimmed a lot - down to its bare essentials (if any).

If the fact that she is anaesthetised is important, then Neil's comment is relevant. The fact is that we don't know what happens when we are given an anesthetic - only that we don't remember it afterwards (a rather scary thought!).

David

 

[Max_B]

I understand that her past action is related to the outcome. She set a timer that is then connected to a gas bomb without realising that that was what she was doing.

But you said this thought experiment was saying something about the role of information. I'm trying to figure out the significance of also writing the number on the card (ie: the storing of the information)? If she set a number < 499 she dies, or is dying. If she sets a number > 499 she lives. Writing the number on the card doesn't seem to play into it?

It was just a secondary way of storing information in the external world. It has no purpose other than to head off objections that sometimes crop up later.

 

[Arouet]

It was just a secondary way of storing information in the external world. It has no purpose other than to head off objections that sometimes crop up later.

Ok. But what objections are you anticipating? If we break it down to basics:

• F sets the timer of a device to a number between 111 and 999 seconds
• E attaches the device to a gas bomb and presses start.
• If the timer reaches zero it will trigger the device will explode.
• E will turn off the timer after 499 seconds, if the bomb hasn't already exploded.

It doesn't seem that this will create any kind of superposition (which is what my similar collapsing tunnel schrodinger's cat thought experiment was getting at, in terms of the relationship between consciousness and wavefunction collapse). Other than F freaking out if she woke up trapped in a box with a bomb (which would be based on the information she received at that time) what role does her being conscious or unconscious play?

I'm trying to figure out what concept this thought experiment is really aiming at.

 

[malf]

The assumption is that there is zero consciousness in an unconscious person, which I would not make.

I think I agree.... But I would be interested in your definition of consciousness that encompasses that concession.

 

[Max_B]

Ok. But what objections are you anticipating? If we break it down to basics:

• F sets the timer of a device to a number between 111 and 999 seconds
• E attaches the device to a gas bomb and presses start.
• If the timer reaches zero it will trigger the device will explode.
• E will turn off the timer after 499 seconds, if the bomb hasn't already exploded.

It doesn't seem that this will create any kind of superposition (which is what my similar collapsing tunnel schrodinger's cat thought experiment was getting at, in terms of the relationship between consciousness and wavefunction collapse). Other than F freaking out if she woke up trapped in a box with a bomb (which would be based on the information she received at that time) what role does her being conscious or unconscious play?

I'm trying to figure out what concept this thought experiment is really aiming at.

That experiment is not my experiment... You can read my experiment on the first post.

 

[Neil]

I think I agree.... But I would be interested in your definition of consciousness that encompasses that concession.

Well I am not saying that it is the case, but I could imagine a scenario where under anesthesia information is not integrated into a single experience that we recognize as waking conscious experience, but there could be conscious experience either within sub complexes or even down to cells themselves that remain since the person is still alive. If conscious experience is collapse of the wave function, and cells can do this, then perhaps in the described experiment the woman's waking consciousness would not be needed to collapse, but her sub complexes or cells could do it.

 

[Arouet]

That experiment is not my experiment... You can read my experiment on the first post.

Yes, I was going off your OP. Breaking it down to the essentials. Did I misrepresent something?

I'll take some inspiration from the bible thread to show how it matched up:

• F sets the timer of a device to a number between 111 and 999 seconds
• E attaches the device to a gas bomb and presses start. (I see upon reading it that it simply released gas rather than exploding, but I'm not sure this makes a difference).
• If the timer reaches zero it will trigger the device will explode.
• E will turn off the timer after 499 seconds (I see I did originally also had "if the bomb had already exploded - had meant to delete that last part)

A woman called Freda attending hospital for a routine operation is asked to choose a number between 111 – 999, and key it into an electronic device without anyone else seeing, and to also write the number secretly on a card, and seal it inside an envelope. Such that no one other than Freda knows the number. Freda is not told the reason for this.

Freda is then taken into the hospital theater and anaesthetised so as to induce a loss of consciousness. Unknown to Freda, the electronic device into which she entered the number is actually a portable timer, and the number she entered corresponds to the number of seconds that the timer will begin counting down from, once activated. Whilst active, the timer will continue counting down until it reaches zero, at which time it is capable of triggering the activation of any device it is attached to.

Whilst still under aesthetic and unconscious, Freda is put inside a steel container, within which is a self-contained mechanism for releasing a lethal gas. The portable timer is connected to the lethal gas mechanism in such a way that when the timer reaches 000 it will trigger, and the gas will be released. The timer is designed to activate, and remain activated only whilst the container door is sealed. The steel container is closed and sealed, thus the timer begins counting down. As the timer has been set somewhere between 111 seconds and 999 seconds, it is decided that container will be unsealed after 499 seconds, which is around half of the total possible time that the timer could run for.

When we unseal and reopen the container, the gas either will, or will not have been released, and Freda will either be alive, dying, or dead. Those on the outside of the container cannot know exactly when the timer will reach 000. Freda on the inside of the box was alive but totally unconscious, has not been told that her life is at risk, or the significance of the number she chose and entered into the electronic device.

If Freda is dead (or dying) when we unseal and open the container, there would appear to have been a physical/objective event that took place inside the container which killed her, despite her being alive, but totally unconscious. At all times, there was no conscious human presence inside the container who could have had any conscious awareness of these events.

It appears that whether there is, or is not, an observer with conscious awareness of events inside the container, this classical experiment (or any other we propose) will play out as if there was an objective/physical state inside the container, *if* there are any past objective/physical facts (information) available anywhere, or at anytime, which may have a bearing (a correlation) on any classical test set-up we propose.

In reading over your last paragraph, your point seems to be that the gas should go off irrespective of the conscious state of F. I'm with you there. But I thought you were getting at something more?