Mod+ 241. JOSEPH ATWILL RESPONDS TO CAESAR’S MESSIAH CRITICS

Well, I've been doing some research, as promised. Atwill isn't only associated with his thesis about Christianity, but also with a theory that Shakespeare was actually a woman who, surreptitiously, was a Jewish protagonist: both topics are covered in this video (Shakespeare first, the origin of Christianity second, starting around 31:40):

like we've seen so many times before, we have to clear the brush to get at the core issue. in this case the central question is:

-- was the NT prophecy of the Messiah influenced by Josephus' historical account?

this answer is clear... it's self-evident... and we don't need a peer-reviewed paper... just look at the two and compare. there are only two possible explanations:

1. they borrowed from Josephus and wrote the prophecy after the fact.

2. it's supernatural prophecy to a degree never seen before or since.

I vote for option 1.
 
Hi John... realize you were responding to T, but allow me to chime in...


agreed.



I don't agree with all of Ehrman conclusions, but I agree with your point. I think the "Jesus myth" (i.e. the claim that there wan't a historical Jesus) thing really gets us sidetracked. In terms of history it doesn't really matter much if there was some person this was all based on. A Bart Ehrman kinda Jesus doesn't legitimize Christianity.

The question Atwill brings into focus in a powerful way is -- when did the Romans begin fiddling with the Christian myth?

There can be no debate that Constantine did so in 302AD... so, was he the first? and why do the Gospels parallel the writings of the Roman court historian Josephus? Again, there can be no debate that they do, the only question is why?

My quick take on this is similar to Wendybird's. I do not think it is logical, necessary, or correct to suggest that Jesus did not exist. I think good arguments can be made that the Messiah described in the T'orah is not meant to be Jesus, and that the word "Christos" is introduced by Paul after the fact, along with his invention of what became (in my opinion) the collection of myths that modern-day Christianity is based on. Paul's intrusion into the Jesus history and the later co-opting of it by Romans under Constantine does not argue against the historical existence of Jesus, but they do raise many questions about the details. Many aspects of Christianity are not just similar to, but exactly the same as details that come from the pagan worship of Mithra. There are so many of those correspondences that I have a hard time believing they weren't lifted from Mithraic sources as opposed to coming from an original Christian source. This partly makes sense of the nonsensical holy trinity and Son of Man/Son of God pillars of Christianity, but again, they do not argue against the existence of Jesus.

My gut feeling on this is that there was a real Jesus, he really was a prophet (as the Muslims agree), he really did perform some supernatural feats, but that his story has been hopelessly corrupted by others after his passing. I do believe that consciousness survives death and that prayer is efficacious, so I don't have any problem with the idea that "Jesus" answers prayers or that he might one day return, either in reincarnated form or as such a powerful expression of spirit that even people who are only dimly aware of spiritual things would be able to detect his presence and be awed by it.

Atwill's thesis is, I think, overly enthusiastic but based on a grain of truth: that the gospels are corrupted and that there is some Roman involvement.

AP
 
Show me the paper trail and less with the Scrabble
You tell me first if you see a pattern with the crucifixion parallels I posted on the previous page! :)

-- was the NT prophecy of the Messiah influenced by Josephus' historical account?

this answer is clear... it's self-evident...
Hi Alex, you are already one step ahead with seeing a pattern between both books, but others may not yet have noticed anything or haven't bothered analysing any percentage of the data. Most people find this kind of exercise very difficult and lack an understanding of probability, etc.

There's actually 3 stages to proving the Flavian origin of Christianity:
1) Spot the connections between both books based on the 40+ parallels in sequence
2) Understand the dark comedy or satire and the fact that both books are written intertextually/interactively (the reason the parallels were designed)
3) Prove that both books were written by the same authors (not 1 book based on another or both books based on a lost 3rd source)
 
"But there is one really interesting thing that links all of those historians together – Suetonius, Josephus, Tacitus, and Dio – the people who talk about this character Jesus Christ and about Christians. They are all Flavian court historians, every one. And every one of them also took the position that the Jewish messianic prophecies foresaw not a Jew but the Flavian Caesar. Every one of them recorded that insane and incredible concept. So when you look at the gospels and you look at my work you see that they were definitely produced in the Flavian compound. Somehow this group was able to generate this literature. So the literature just is a false history. It is a fiction about a character living in 30 to 33."

this seems like a really important point. it took a longtime for this to sink in. this would be like some Iranian Mullah immigrating to the US, taking a high paying job as a DC lobbyist, and then announcing that the Koran really teaches that Obama is really Allah's emissary on earth.

there's just no way to pretend that this was not driven by his Roman bosses. this is classic party-line talking point kinda stuff.
 
I do not think it is logical, necessary, or correct to suggest that Jesus did not exist.

Hi Andy... I know everyone is drawn to this point because it's so provocative, but I'd really like to keep shifting the focus to this question:

-- does the NT Messiah prophecy show signs of being influenced by Josephus' account?

Everything flows from that question.
 
There's actually 3 stages to proving the Flavian origin of Christianity:
1) Spot the connections between both books based on the 40+ parallels in sequence
2) Understand the dark comedy or satire and the fact that both books are written intertextually/interactively (the reason the parallels were designed)
3) Prove that both books were written by the same authors (not 1 book based on another or both books based on a lost 3rd source)

Great.

Do you have a link to a nice, simple display of the parallels were talking about:

-- wall around Jerusalem
-- temple destroyed
-- etc.
 
Here's a good 70% of the parallel data:

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras
Judas Iscariot vs. Judas of the Sicarii

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
 
DATA
Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)		
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion) 
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
     Matt 4:19              Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness	
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them .. 
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face 
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out 
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two .. 
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down 
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you .. 
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes .. 
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences 
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33 	         hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209 
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him .. 
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe
                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar
                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another
                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many
                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes 
                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many
                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house 
                            .. not go back to get his clothes. 
                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man
                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven .. 
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds
                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into 
     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!         
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places .. 
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets .. 
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor 
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking 
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe .. 
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343   
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down
     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones
     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs
     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot
     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go
                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter
                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains
     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      
     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples .. 
                            take up his cross and follow me
     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus
     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned
     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..
                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation
                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain .. 
                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment
                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263
                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26
                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him .. 
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord
 
First of all, Christianity is a faith, a belief system. One accepts its tenets or one does not. Last week's gospel, the third Sunday of Lent, John 4 5:42 (you won't believe how much I dislike quoting from the bible, but anyway..) contained a passage in which a Samaritan woman, an outcast in Jewish society, was drawing water at midday in the heat of the sun. Jesus tells her to go and call her husband. She tells him she has none. Jesus tells her she's right to say that because although she has five, the present one is not her husband. I won't elaborate on the underlying message, suffice to say Jesus somehow knows the truth behind appearances, as he does elsewhere in the New Testament. If one accepts the reports, Jesus is at the very least, a high functioning psychic. Does that make him the son of God, part of the Trinity? Obviously not, that requires a close reading of the texts and a degree of faith. It does infer a supernatural dimension.

Reducing the bible to word games does not address the underlying message. If Jesus is not extraordinary, or a fiction, we have to find a role for him.
 
•The works of Josephus intentionally creates a lampoon of the New Testament's Jesus by having the woe-saying Jesus share his words, phrases, ideas, and experiences - and, obviously, by means of their shared name. They are parallel in one other important way. Each gives a list of "signs" that foretell Jerusalem's impending doom.


•Both Jesuses are using the word "woe" to describe the disasters that will come to the inhabitants of Jerusalem when the "Son" returns. The New Testament Jesus foresees this disaster occurring with the return of a "Son of God," while Josephus' woe-saying Jesus also foresees this occurring with the coming of a "son of god." Josephus links his woe-saying Jesus to the Jesus in the New Testament in yet another way, by the date of his death. Josephus enables the reader to calculate this date by stating that the time when the woe-saying Jesus began his wailing was "four years before the war began" and that he continues "without growing hoarse" for "seven years and five months." As noted by Eisenman, these dates indicate that the woe-saying Jesus died on Passover in 70 CE. This is a precise 40-year "generation" from the beginning of the ministry of the New Testament's Jesus - who predicted that his prophecies would be fulfilled within 40 years. Jesus ben Ananus is another wry fulfilment of the New Testament Jesus' prophecy.


•In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus states that the temple of Jerusalem will be destroyed. He then is asked what signs will foretell its destruction. Jesus responds with a list of signs that will occur before the coming of the "Son of Man," the individual whose visitation will bring about the destruction. Josephus also gives a list of signs that, as he relates it, actually did preceded the destruction of the temple. When these two lists of signs are compared, a number of parallels emerge. Firstly, both sets of signs are in relation to the coming destruction of the temple. The route the son of man would take was the direction of the march of the Roman army as they entered Judea on the east and carried their conquest westward. Like in Daniel 7:13, the New Testament Jesus sees a sign of the Son of Man in the sky, foreshadowing that the destruction is imminent. This is problematic for Christianity. If one accepts, as the early Christian scholars did (see Hippolytis c. 200 CE), that the signs Jesus gives in Matthew come to pass with the signs Josephus records, then it is difficult to contradict that Jesus was referring to Titus as the "Son of Man," chariots and troops being more synonymous with leaders of Roman armies than with religious sages. Of interest is the fact that on the Arch of Titus in Rome, there is a relief depicting both Titus' consecratio and his conquest of Jerusalem, which shows him being carried into the clouds on an eagle. Other scholars have noticed the connection between Jesus and Titus, that Josephus' sign regarding chariots and troops creates (see eighteenth-century theologian Reland). Since Jesus' eschatological prophecies were solely regarding the destruction of Judea by the Romans, they appear to envision him coming "at the head of the Roman army." Because Titus was the head of the army that destroyed Jerusalem, the parallel that this sign created between Jesus and him seems clear. Numerous scholars have understood the passage "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together" to indicate that Jesus is foreseeing the Roman army gathering about the corpses amidst the destroyed temple (see Albert Barnes 1832).


•Continuing with the lists of signs, in the New Testament Jesus predicts "woe" for women who are suckling a child. Josephus shows that this came to pass in the "Son of Mary who was a human passover lamb" passage. Throughout Wars of the Jews, Josephus uses the word "robber" to describe the Jewish rebels. Jesus literally dates the "close of the age" that he is prophesying. Jews in the first century held that a generation lasted 40 years. Therefore the generation that Jesus is referring to can only be the one that, 40 years later, rebelled from Rome. Thus, all of Jesus' prophecies were foreseeing events from the coming war.


•The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus has seen into the future and is telling the Jews what they must do to avoid "tribulation." Jesus leaves the interior of the temple, where the dialogue of Matthew 23 occurs, and then continues this speech (Matthew 24) outside the temple. Therefore, the parallel between Zacharias, son of Barachiah, and Zacharias, son of Baruch, both slain in the temple, should be understood to be in the same stream of prophecy Jesus gives in Matthew 24, because it is from the same speech. In light of the numerous parallels in Matthew 24 and Wars of the Jews, we are on solid footing when we understand this to be another of Jesus "seeing" something in the future that Josephus documents in the same chapter. There is a problem with accepting that this parallel belongs in the same set as Jesus' famous eschatological prophecies, however. The character that Jesus refers to, appeared not in his future but in his past. The prophet "Zachari'ah the son of Barachi'ah" is a character from the Old Testament, so how can Jesus be foreseeing him in the future? Further, how could Josephus then record that Jesus was right, that Zacharias' death occurred in 70 CE, along with the other prophecies envisioned by Jesus in Matthew 23 and 24? Jesus, in the midst of a series of predictions, describes something that has already occurred. Josephus then "records" it coming to pass, a second time, in the future. An absurd spoof, comparable with the woe-saying Jesus being struck dead by a stone. Imagine somebody today who, claiming to be able to see the future, gives a list of events that will happen in the coming century. At the end of the list, he predicts that Germany will lose Word War II. The comedy is ludicrous. When Jesus states that the Jews have been wicked "from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias," and this generation will "fill up" on the measure of their fathers, a first-century convert to Christianity would have understood that he was "predicting" the Jews' destruction in 70 CE. Indeed, what other interpretation of Jesus' words is possible? In addition, by giving "the blood of Zacharias" as the end point of the Jews' wickedness, Jesus is also clearly stating that it will be an event immediately before the "wicked generation" will "fill up" on their "tribulation". Jesus is clearly predicting that Zacharias' blood will be spilled immediately before the Jews' destruction by the Romans.


•As with all of Jesus' prophecies, his list of signs operates on two levels. On their surface, they would have demonstrated to early uneducated Christian converts, the divinity of Jesus, because he had been able to see into the future, and simultaneously justified the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem, because it "proved" that it had been foreseen by God. On their satiric level, however, the two lists of signs are obviously clues to the real identity of the Son of Man - Titus Flavius. The belief that the two works came from two distinct sources creates the effect that they demonstrate the supernatural, which is to say, Jesus' power of prophecy. The New Testament reveals the true "Son of God" because Christ's predictions come true. A "historian" then records them. Josephus' histories must be accurate because they record the works of God. Jesus predicts the events that Josephus witnesses. The most straightforward, non-supernatural explanation is that the same source produced both works.


•Christ's prophecies relate to the coming war between the Romans and the Jews, and that the "Son of God" (Titus) would lead the Romany army. At the very beginning of the Roman assault on Jerusalem, the SON actually did "COMETH" to destroy Jerusalem. Jesus predicts that another nation, obviously Rome, will be given the "Kingdom of God." Jesus compares himself to a stone, one that if it strikes will "utterly crush." In other words, he is saying that the "Son of God" is a "stone" who will crush those who reject him, obviously meaning the Jews. He states this specifically within the context of Rome's use of power. This is, of course, the same satiric concept where Josephus records that a "Son," who is in fact a "stone," has crushed Jews. The destruction of the Jews has been seen as being quite appropriate vengeance for their destruction of the Saviour. If Rome did create Christianity to instil anti-Semitism, their invention certainly stands the test of time. Like Jesus' other ironic self-designations (fisher of men, living bread, living water), with "stone" the physical location where Jesus uses the expression is part of the send-up. He calls himself a "stone" rejected by the builders (meaning the Jews), which will "utterly crush" those on whom it falls, at the exact spot where Josephus records that stones did actually fall on Jews during the war with Rome. Josephus continues the satiric theme of Jesus calling himself a stone that will "crush." The woe-saying Jesus in his last words of slapstick comedy says "Woe, woe to myself also!" and is killed just as the Roman siege of Jerusalem begins, by a stone!
 
like we've seen so many times before, we have to clear the brush to get at the core issue. in this case the central question is:

-- was the NT prophecy of the Messiah influenced by Josephus' historical account?

this answer is clear... it's self-evident... and we don't need a peer-reviewed paper... just look at the two and compare. there are only two possible explanations:

1. they borrowed from Josephus and wrote the prophecy after the fact.

2. it's supernatural prophecy to a degree never seen before or since.

I vote for option 1.
I vote for option 2.
 
@alex.tsakiris Why the focus on NT prophecies, and not dealing with the multitude of OT prophecies? The Jews were indeed expecting a Messiah. Surely, Atwill won't consider those a Roman invention too, going back o the captivity in Babylon.

Of course, NT writers did their best to make narrative of Jesus match the expected pattern.
 
So if they backdated Jesus 40 years then they had to fill in the gap:
"But there is one really interesting thing that links all of those historians together – Suetonius, Josephus, Tacitus, and Dio – the people who talk about this character Jesus Christ and about Christians. They are all Flavian court historians, every one. And every one of them also took the position that the Jewish messianic prophecies foresaw not a Jew but the Flavian Caesar. Every one of them recorded that insane and incredible concept. So when you look at the gospels and you look at my work you see that they were definitely produced in the Flavian compound. Somehow this group was able to generate this literature. So the literature just is a false history. It is a fiction about a character living in 30 to 33."

But in 64 AD, five years before the first Flavian came to power, Nero was persecuting Christians, who must definitely have been around for about 30 years. So what would have had to happen is that the Flavians retrospectively moulded the Christian message and sold it to a credulous populace who previously had bought a different message. Why? Apparently, the idea is to soften a threat: the Messiah as a worldly figure who intended to overthrow the state by the sword; not only that, but in disguised form to cast New Testament characters as Flavian heroes.

Where did the Flavians get the idea of portraying Christ as a gentle character, who brought a message not of a worldly kingdom, but a heavenly one? That implies that they invented, or borrowed from some pre-existing sect, the spiritual message of Christianity. So here we have this cynical bunch of manipulators who nonetheless must have in some sense grasped that message and how it could affect the minds of people: make them docile and purportedly more malleable. It seems inconsistent that cynics like this could have invented the main thrust of the message of the Gospels. My bet is that if they interfered, they would have had to have appropriated it from an already existing sect, and dressed it in Flavian garb. Why couldn't that sect have been Christianity as it actually already existed? And if it was some other sect, so what? It was still a message of peace and love that resonates to this day.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that the Gospels as they have come down to us couldn't have been influenced by politics, but the message seems hardly one that Romans of all people could have cut from whole cloth as early in Christian history as is being suggested. The reason Christians were disliked by some was that they didn't fit in: they didn't have a religion, so much as a "superstition", which at the time meant it didn't conform to the Roman idea of religion, which was meant to bolster the state and its ruling classes. Moreover, after the Flavians and before Constantine, the persecutions persisted--see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

If the Flavians had constructed something that was designed to keep the Christians malleable and fit in better, they apparently failed, judging by the ongoing persecutions. Also, if there are parallels between what is said in the Gospels and what is written in Tacitus, in which direction was the influence? Did Roman satire influence the content of the Gospels, or was Roman satire applied to that content retrospectively and appear in Tacitus' account?

Finally, Atwill is not a linguist: there seems to be some doubt whether he can read the Gospels in Greek. If so, the conjectures he makes about the similarities of names and words in general are based on how they sound and are written in English.
 
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I'm no scholar on these matters but the subject was of interest to me back in the 90's so I did read quite a bit back then. It's a little difficult to remember the details now but I did form an opinion back then. It is quite hazy now but I'll give it a shot.

It seemed to me that beneath the outer layers of Judaism, then and now, there is a mysticism at the core which dates back to the days of "captivity" in Egypt. I put captivity in quotes because I think that what we think of as the Hebrews (habiru) were probably well integrated into the Egyptian hierarchy, but that's another story. That mystical core was protected, maintained and practiced by a sect or sects within Judaism. Perhaps these were the Essenes. The Old Testament contains clues to the core material which has direct parallels to Egyptian myths and others from further east including Persian and even Indian sources.

So it seems that Jesus was the chosen one: the one who would fulfil certain messianic prophecies:

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." [Hosea 11:1]

It seems reasonable to believe that there were others around that time who could, and did, use some of the mystical arts and practices for healing, etc. John the Baptist and Simon Magus spring to mind - both important figures in the Gnostic tradition. Perhaps Jesus is a composite figure comprising the historical Jesus with activities performed by others attributed to this messiah figure?

What seems to be important is not the accuracy of the historical details but the story itself. The myth is not to be dismissed lightly - it reaches deep into the heart of belief and its message is revealed in its symbolism. The dying and reborn king, Dionysus, Mithra, Krishna, Jesus, the madonna and child, Isis and Horus ... the story repeated, the symbolism reinforced. Behind the words, the real story emerges: for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:10
 
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like we've seen so many times before, we have to clear the brush to get at the core issue. in this case the central question is:

-- was the NT prophecy of the Messiah influenced by Josephus' historical account?

this answer is clear... it's self-evident... and we don't need a peer-reviewed paper... just look at the two and compare. there are only two possible explanations:

1. they borrowed from Josephus and wrote the prophecy after the fact.

2. it's supernatural prophecy to a degree never seen before or since.

I vote for option 1.

Look: I am in broad agreement with Andy Paquette. It's highly probable that the Gospels were contaminated by those with political/cultural aims. In addition, which sources were chosen to be made canonical, out of the many available, were probably also so influenced. Regardless, what one can't escape is the essence of the message that today we call Christian. Despite the adulteration there almost certainly is, the sermon on the mount (for example) is there, and the message is about as non-Roman as one can possibly imagine:


Matthew

The eight Beatitudes in Matthew 5:3–12 during the Sermon on the Mount each begins with: [2][3]

Blessed are..

  • ...the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven. (5:3)
  • ...those who mourn: for they will be comforted. (5:4)
  • ...the meek: for they will inherit the earth. (5:5)
  • ...those who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be filled. (5:6)
  • ...the merciful: for they will be shown mercy. (5:7)
  • ...the pure in heart: for they will see God. (5:8)
  • ...the peacemakers: for they will be called children of God. (5:9)
  • ...those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (5:10)
Where did these come from? I contend that they must have originated in a non-Roman mind. I find appealing the speculation that Gospel messages were influenced by far-eastern Vedantism, but cast in a language more suitable to the people of the Middle East.

I don't defend Christian conventional, more or less literal understandings of events in the NT, nor the body of doctrine that has arisen from them, much of which seems to me to be absurd. My own take is that what has survived in the Gospels is an admixture of the genuinely spiritual with motivated spin: more likely from early ecclesiastics than those with cynical aims for the Roman empire. For some reason, that core of spirituality, whatever its origin, has survived, and is why I think of myself as a Christian, albeit of an unconventional kind. It doesn't matter to me whether or not Jesus was a historical figure: somehow, somewhen, a Vedanta-inspired message could have come to the Middle East and found itself being promulgated in the story of the Gospels.

That it should have been cast in terms linked with the Abrahamic God of the OT isn't surprising to me: I'm also a great fan of Sufism, where a central tenet is "time, place and people": universal and enduring spiritual messages are always couched in terms that their recipients can best relate to. Moreover, such messages are always corrupted to some degree or other by literalists with axes to grind. I happen to think there is far less corruption in the scriptures of Christianity than those of Islam, but I think that both, along with Judaism (and other traditions such as Buddhism and Vedanta) spring from some genuinely spiritual impulse that at a deep level is identical. The chameleon always remains a chameleon: a particular colouration doesn't make it a different animal.
 
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I vote for option 2.
Bravely said, Ian. It's somewhat incongruent, is it not, that Alex is a great proponent of psychic phenomena, and yet thinks it unlikely that some prophetic source or other could ever have gotten something right?

That source doesn't have to be a prophet to whom we currently apply a specific name. Who knows what went on back in the mists of time before the discipline of historical documentation and research had developed? Myth and folklore will always be with us and are still being created in the modern world despite advances in scholarship. It's not beyond imagining that someone, somewhere, could have made predictions that turned out to be true, but which have been attributed to a mythical figure and woven into some story or other.
 
Hi Andy... I know everyone is drawn to this point because it's so provocative, but I'd really like to keep shifting the focus to this question:

-- does the NT Messiah prophecy show signs of being influenced by Josephus' account?

Everything flows from that question.
I'll have to reread Josephus to answer this. The last time I read it (and I have read a lot of these Roman historians) was about four years ago. At the time I thought it was much less interesting than Seutonius or Tacitus (my favorites). The Christian material, or the material about Christians, as I remember it, was thin. However, I'm no historian. My feeling about the messiah prophecies has always been that they referred to the 73AD destruction of the temple and related events. I hadn't thought of it as influenced by the Roman court, but don't see how they could be taken to refer to anything else given that those events are the only ones that fulfill the conditions of the prophecy. I know I've had dreams about Jesus being a messiah, but that is a separate issue. Based on the historical record, I don't see any legitimate way to support an argument that those prophecies did not refer to the first century temple destruction and attendant events.

AP
 
Despite the adulteration there almost certainly is, the sermon on the mount (for example) is there, and the message is about as non-Roman as one can possibly imagine:
I agree with that. The sermons are one of those passages in the bible that defy easy analysis, turning everything we think we know about human nature upside down. Christ encourages his disciples, a bunch of illiterate fishermen, but continually cuts them off at the knees when they think they have a handle on what he's about. By the time of Pentecost, these cowardly, squabbling nonentities are visited by a howling wind and tongues of fire which turn them into inspired preachers who accumulate the beginnings of a world religion by the time of their brutal deaths. That sounds like a case of extreme psi I could imagine happening, or a very contrived lie. I used to believe it was the second, but having studied psi and religion more deeply, I think it was the first.

The Christ figure is a complex, often contradictory one, unlike the two dimensional peacenik he's often drawn as by his detractors. That gives him an air of realism for me, and makes his message as daunting and uncomfortable as it is comforting. In other words, what I expect of a God.
 
Hi Andy... I know everyone is drawn to this point because it's so provocative, but I'd really like to keep shifting the focus to this question:

-- does the NT Messiah prophecy show signs of being influenced by Josephus' account?

Everything flows from that question.

Which prophecy exactly are you referring to? Can you supply the reference, please?
 
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