Conspiracy Theories

I can get behind that if....IF, the abyss could be construed as the antithesis to logic.

That is the way to think about the Abyss... But wouldn't that mean the Abyss obeys some sort of rules or boundaries? We can only describe it by saying what it is not. And just like nothing cannot really exist because existence is something... The Abyss exists as an antithetical concept and source of irrationality but must necessarily obey rules to exist at all... Because existence is a type of pattern and therefore rationality. Therefore Logos > Abyss and light > darkness and something > nothing.

Even these flat earther's referenced above employ a certain level of logic. I've read their seemingly bizzare theory, and I couldn't really say it was wrong, empirically, since I admit, my view of the Earth as a sphere, along with all of the physics that go along with that, are entirely faith based. I'm not a physicist, I've never been to outer space and I've never so much as performed a single experiment that could prove to me first hand that the earth is a sphere. But I believe that it is. Why? Because it makes sense. Because I default toward the position that hundreds of scientists over hundreds of years aren't all lying to us. Now, could the earth actually be flat? It's within the realm of possibility. Again, I've never been to outer space and seen first hand that the earth is a sphere. I've never travelled to the ends of Antarctica to find out. But it seems highly implausible. But again, that's entirely based on faith.

Well it's so easy to falsify the flat earth theory on your own just by walking outside and observing the movements of the sun that believing in flat earth is only a half step away from solipsism.... Which isn't invalid but isn't as interesting. Going down that route I've wondered if the existence of the abyss combined with inherent ambiguity in all communication means that explanations for past events can be altogether changed by zooming in or out to a greater or higher level of detail. Sort of like this is a dream reality that is fairly stable but with some dreamlike instability at the edges.

It's interesting, really, to sit down and really inventory your beliefs and why you hold those beliefs. For as much as faith is a dirty word in our modern "scientifically based" culture, the vast majority of our beliefs rely specifically on faith. Faith in a creator is just one more. Though, I'd argue that there may actually be more reason to believe in a creator on a personal level than there is to believe the earth is a sphere. And that is because the belief in God often seems to be one of those things that are based on personal experience. Science, to a great extent for the majority of people, is not. It is something we are taught in classrooms, through boring lectures and sterile textbooks, through pop-science television shows and preached to us by "the experts". Not that science cannot be experienced first hand, given one has enough time and money, it often isn't. We have faith that the experts are telling us the truth.

Then, when we find out that, maybe...sometimes...they lie. Is it any wonder that after years of this scientific renaissance, where we are told "trust us, we know the truth" only to find that so often those truths were lies, we have a certain level of mistrust? That the publics faith has been damaged by years being given misleading information and promissory technologies that never seem to pan out?

When the experts start behaving more like clerics, we've got a problem. When questioning, the cornerstone of science, is disallowed, we've got a problem. When the golden rule of science, repeat until verified, is abandoned, we've got a problem.

Somewhere science as an institution lost its way. And the public is losing faith. Yes, faith, in science. So, then you get those who start to believe everything is a lie, which, I'll admit, is easy to do. That's how you get theories of lizard people, flat earths and intergalactic UN-type organizations. That, and I think on some level there is a sort of romanticism in the conspiracy. Day to day life can be boring and repetitive. Conspiracy theories awaken within us a sense of mystery, a way to break out of the mundane. I think some, not all, are fantasies that start to become reality for some people.

Agree
 
Does it matter whether it's a theory or a belief? There really isn't any difference. We all believe theories. Theories are the basis of all of our belief systems. I've yet to come across any aspect of life or so-called reality that isn't, at its heart, just a theory.
There's a difference between a belief and a conspiracy theory. A belief may be founded on circumstantial or contextual evidence that lacks absolute proof. A legal judgement or belief in life after death is of this type. A conspiracy theory suggests an event - generally something unusual or shocking - must have had a nefarious cause, and is the responsibility of individuals known to the theorist. I can't think of any conspiracy theory attributed to person or persons unknown, they are always associated with black ops, pan-international business or religion, shadowy government departments, or similar covert institutions.

One of the characteristics of conspiracy theories is that actions are never the responsibility of those in the official explanation, so someone with known links to an aggressor must be a patsy, or have been hypnotised, or a dupe for those really responsible.
 
One of the characteristics of conspiracy theories is that actions are never the responsibility of those in the official explanation, so someone with known links to an aggressor must be a patsy, or have been hypnotised, or a dupe for those really responsible.

Yes, this is sometimes true, but I've come across all types of conspiracy theories. Like anything else, they exist along a spectrum ranging from the extremely absurd to the completely logical. Some theories are a hybrid of the above, where the perpetrator was responsible, but was acting in concert with a larger organization.

I think we fundamentally disagree on what exactly constitutes a conspiracy theory here.

You could flip it around. Instead of "conspiracy theorists" being out of touch with reality, perhaps it's the rest of us that are. We could be engaging in our own conspiracy theory that just so happens to fall in line with whatever official narrative is put out there, and we refuse to look at evidence suggesting otherwise because we don't want to believe that there are nefarious forces out there working against us.

Reality and perception are funny things. We often only see what we want to see.
 
the way to think about the Abyss... But wouldn't that mean the Abyss obeys some sort of rules or boundaries? We can only describe it by saying what it is not. And just like nothing cannot really exist because existence is something... The Abyss exists as an antithetical concept and source of irrationality but must necessarily obey rules to exist at all... Because existence is a type of pattern and therefore rationality. Therefore Logos > Abyss and light > darkness and something > nothing.
Interestingly, I was thinking again about boundaries on my drive home from work. How arbitrary they are and the closer you look, the fuzzier they become. Boundaries are by and large somewhat illusory. Christ, how many wars have been fought over illusionary boundaries?

A thesis and its antithesis imply a boundary between the two in word only. In reality there is always a flow between the two at the margins. It's likely that it's at the edges of the boundary between our reality and what may lie beyond where all paranormal phenomena are experienced. Could also explain why pinning this stuff down in concrete terms is so difficult. Those things which lie between this world and the next are defying rules of both realities. It's not obeying our laws, nor perhaps that of the other.

I dunno, I'm just kinda shootin' from the hip here. I'll admit, I've never formally looked into any of this from a philosophical stand point, so I may just be spouting off like some kind of moron.
 
You could flip it around. Instead of "conspiracy theorists" being out of touch with reality, perhaps it's the rest of us that are. We could be engaging in our own conspiracy theory that just so happens to fall in line with whatever official narrative is put out there, and we refuse to look at evidence suggesting otherwise because we don't want to believe that there are nefarious forces out there working against us.
Yes, you could say that, but eventually you disappear down the nothing-is-real rabbit hole. While it may be ultimately true that nothing is as it seems, it's not a useful approach to life or every bus driver is a Man in Black and the guy who reads the electricity meter is fitting surveillance. I don't think paranoia about the world is conducive to good mental health.

Conspiracists are like the boy who cried wolf. When the house is really on fire, everyone has stopped listening.
 
I think we fundamentally disagree on what exactly constitutes a conspiracy theory here.
This is a tricky one. I have a couple of friends - from different backgrounds, they've never even met one another, who each in their own way lead deeply unhappy lives. The source of their unhappiness is always somewhere 'out there'. What concerns me here is where the borderline between rational thought transitions into irrationality and what one might loosely term 'mental illness'. I don't use that term with any form of pejorative or derogatory meaning, on the contrary it pains me to see close friends suffering, and I always treat them and their ideas with respect, however I'm often unable to reach through the web of entangled thought to share some ordinary warmth of friendship, ideas can become so all-encompassing as to cut off even the simplest of everyday enjoyments.

That may be a slightly unfair example, as the friends I mention have undoubtedly some physical, medical component to their condition, which I am not qualified to evaluate. But I mention it as a part of a continuum, some years ago (long before my Skeptiko days - perhaps even before the internet) I myself was venturing into certain ideas which nowadays would be grouped among the ideas of conspiracy theory, and it was leading me into a dark place in my life which had a great deal in common with the situation of the friends I mention.

The ideas we hold are not absolutes in the sense of being a literal description of the world, I've come to realise that our ideas are a projection which we overlay on the world. This is something very powerful. When we project and overlay our ideas onto the world, this is not a passive filter, such as 'rose-tinted spectacles' or any other shade and tone. It is far from passive. Our thoughts and ideas construct our reality, not just within our bodies, having the ability to affect our mental and physical well-being, but there is no boundary or cut-off to the location of our thoughts, our ideas reach out into the world and generate synchronicities, not mere meaningless patterns, but actual events, people we will meet, circumstances in which we find ourselves. Thought is powerful. This is where the relevance of conspiracy theories is most important. In my opinion, and certainly from my own experience, the biggest danger of viewing the world through the ideas of conspiracies, is that we may relinquish responsibility for the creative power of our own thoughts, and start to bring about that which we fear. Perhaps what I'm saying may seem off-topic or unrelated to this thread. Nevertheless it reflects my journey, my experience, which is all I can offer here.
 
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Yes, you could say that, but eventually you disappear down the nothing-is-real rabbit hole. While it may be ultimately true that nothing is as it seems, it's not a useful approach to life or every bus driver is a Man in Black and the guy who reads the electricity meter is fitting surveillance. I don't think paranoia about the world is conducive to good mental health.

Conspiracists are like the boy who cried wolf. When the house is really on fire, everyone has stopped listening.
I agree. It's definitely not any way to go through life. I personally find some of these "theories" interesting, but I don't really think about them too much beyond that.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter much to my day to day life who is really "running the show", so to speak. I just do my best to live my life. But I agree, sometimes people take it way too far, and like Typoz said above, it can become a scapegoat for everything in ones life, where they aren't taking responsibility for their own lives and instead blame it all on "reptilians" or "the elite".
 
Thought is powerful. This is where the relevance of conspiracy theories is most important. In my opinion, and certainly from my own experience, the biggest danger of viewing the world through the ideas of conspiracies, is that we may relinquish responsibility for the creative power of our own thoughts, and start to bring about that which we fear. Perhaps what I'm saying may seem off-topic or unrelated to this thread. Nevertheless it reflects my journey, my experience, which is all I can offer here.
Well said! And I totally agree.

It's kind of like the afterlife question. Ultimately, there is nothing we can do about whether there is an afterlife, or aliens secretly ruling the world, or the "new world order". What we can do is choose how we let these ideas affect our choices in life. Do we choose to give into fear or nihilism and spend our days cursing the day of our doom? Or do we use this life as a means by which to learn as much as we can about how to relate to each other in the kindest manner? Aliens or shadow governments or not, me choosing to do my best to treat others with kindness, compassion and respect is going to affect my life and others in a positive way, something aliens or shadow governments could likewise do nothing about.

Whether I live under a brutal dictatorship or the freest democracy in history, whether my consciousness continues after my body dies or my consciousness ceases to be, I choose to how I affect those immediately around me, which I think collectively has more power than any body of rule ever could. By actively choosing love, kindness, compassion and respect as opposed to fear, powerlessness, bitterness and hatred, we can effectively change the world, one small family or group of friends at a time. And whether that ends with one lifetime, then I will have chosen a path of love that positively effected my own time here on earth, as well as those around me. And the hope is that, that would continue on.
 
I agree. It's definitely not any way to go through life. I personally find some of these "theories" interesting, but I don't really think about them too much beyond that.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter much to my day to day life who is really "running the show", so to speak. I just do my best to live my life. But I agree, sometimes people take it way too far, and like Typoz said above, it can become a scapegoat for everything in ones life, where they aren't taking responsibility for their own lives and instead blame it all on "reptilians" or "the elite".
History tends to show the opposite to the grand conspiracy - rather than shadowy forces pulling the levers, the fact is no one is in charge, least of all those who claim to be. Yes, there are a few very wealthy individuals who control financial systems, and succeed in making themselves even wealthier through various forms of popular debt, but most play on existing human weakness and fears, not by inventing new ones. I was recently in an internet conversation with someone who insisted the Jews were responsible for the world's ills by pushing it into various forms of communism, for their own benefit. You agreed with the proposition instantly and without demur, or you were scum and part of the conspiracy. Variations of that mindset, whether Jews, or Big Government (frequently the same), or aliens (in cahoots with govt), have the whole thing wrapped up and if you can't damn well see that, you're a goddam asshole. There's no way of finding truth in the mix, because it resembles clinical paranoia more than any other explanation. If there's another perspective on the data, I'm happy to hear it.
 
History tends to show the opposite to the grand conspiracy - rather than shadowy forces pulling the levers, the fact is no one is in charge, least of all those who claim to be.
Right. I agree with this too. I think, superficially "they" (anyone from Ramses II to Barack Obama to "the Bilderberg group", pick your poison) do have a certain level of control. In somewhat superficial ways, but that control is ALWAYS fleeting. Regimes change, religions change, societies change, it's all always in motion. Control over the banking system today, leads to none at all whatsoever tomorrow.

If the short term ramifications of this constant wrestling for power weren't so tragic, I'd be tempted to laugh hysterically at all of it. If taking a long view of things, all of this political nonsense just seems absolutely absurd; the bid for temporary power by what appears to be nothing more than a gaggle of spoiled 5 year olds.

If there is such a thing as a shadowy, wealthy elite trying to control the world and mold it into whatever it is "they" want it to be, I just...feel...empathy more than anything I guess. How wretched it must be to spend this life, which may very well be the only one we get (afterlife or no, reincarnation is not a forgone conclusion if there is) wasting time and money for such idiotic and fleeting endeavors. So much good could be done with their wealth, yet they choose world domination? I guess I just don't harbor that kind of mindset, so I can't understand it.

The whole issue of power and control is just beyond me. It's so, so fleeting. Every dictator I can think of has met a horrible end. The journey might be awful, but they always lose in the end. But it's like, no one ever learns from this.
 
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There's no way of finding truth in the mix, because it resembles clinical paranoia more than any other explanation. If there's another perspective on the data, I'm happy to hear it.

Again, I agree. I understand you are only referring to truth in regards to "conspiracy theories" here, but I think it goes beyond that. I believe truth, as we are capable of perceiving of it, can only be seen as partial truths at best. Absolute, pure truth requires, IMO, an ability to perceive beyond that which the human mind is capable. So, we each live according to what we believe to be our own truth. Some peoples "truth" narratives are harmful, others not so much.

Is truth only that which the majority agree upon, regardless of its veracity? How often have we believed we know "the truth" only to discover we were wrong, so very wrong, all along?
 
Again, I agree. I understand you are only referring to truth in regards to "conspiracy theories" here, but I think it goes beyond that. I believe truth, as we are capable of perceiving of it, can only be seen as partial truths at best. Absolute, pure truth requires, IMO, an ability to perceive beyond that which the human mind is capable. So, we each live according to what we believe to be our own truth. Some peoples "truth" narratives are harmful, others not so much.

Is truth only that which the majority agree upon, regardless of its veracity? How often have we believed we know "the truth" only to discover we were wrong, so very wrong, all along?
Personally speaking, I'm uninterested in abstract truths except when they point to abstractions. The narrative of peace is an absence of war, and vice versa. It isn't difficult to tell the difference, no one dies. The narrative of MacDonalds is a tasty beefburger, not the slitting of ruminant throats, just as the story of government is civilisation, not power in the hands of the few. We could see only power and blood letting, but that would be as cock-eyed as only seeing its opposite.
Some NDErs tell us the world they briefly left resembled a stage set, insubstantial and worthless artifice once the play had moved on. That kind of meta-narrative I can understand, it bears out what we suspect of the broken noses and hearts of life's journey. The suggestion that the journey itself is played out by one limited, mortal entity at the hands of another elicits a "so what?" and "how can you tell?" Suggesting conspiracies never happen is as crazy as insisting it's all conspiracy. The sensible approach is to admit we'll never know which it is, and move on.
 
I have my doubts that agnosticism is sensible.
It may not be sensible, but might be more rewarding. Materialists don't have much time for love, and none at all for happiness. They're only interested in The Truth, whatever the hell that is. I think most of us recognise a suitable dreamscape when we see one, and a symbolic map that resonates deep down. We can easily fill our time worrying about the known unknowns without getting into the unknown unknowns of Rumsfeldia.
 
Ask a conspiracy theorist to name a false conspiracy claim. My bet is most wouldn't be able to. They are out to get us.

Unlike many, I support some conspiracy theories, but not all of them. So, I can name not only the ones I support (JFK assasination, 9/11 attacks) but also the ones I reject (global depopulation agenda, Moon hoax).

Generally, I'm interestred in "local" conspiracy theories - ones about a particular event of a series of events, yet have no sympathy for "global" consiracy theories - one which describe the whole historical trends and global movements as a results of intentional conspiring. The latter ones, unlike the former ones, opens the door for the truly paranoid thinking, when it is easy to see everything as a result of malevolent fabrication. With such attitude, one starts look like one ultra-extreme psi skeptic I know personally, who insist that all psi researchers are frauds who conspire internationally to fool the public...
 
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