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Returning to foundational principles does not mean the lessons of the past are forgotten and then immediately unlearned. There are multiple confounding factors beyond the central principle. Principly the human condition. This is far beyond the scope of the central point that I raise.
I ask because you asked us to roll up our sleeves. But to do what? What's going to be different this time?

So sovereignty is just a failure then?
I don't think it's a failure. I asked for examples of when you thought it was a success (to get an idea of what you're talking about). Are you saying that there aren't any examples?

I want things to change, too.
 
I ask because you asked us to roll up our sleeves. But to do what? What's going to be different this time?



I don't think it's a failure. I asked for examples of when you thought it was a success (to get an idea of what you're talking about). Are you saying that there aren't any examples?

I want things to change, too.
Ha, I meant for the shot.

You're missing the point. I Never claimed all problems are solved. That us something you guys are projecting. What I am saying is that we are under threat from global corporate and financial institutions. What's the solution? The answer to that is actually pretty obvious. It is not an answer to all of life's problems. Would be nice to talk about solutions instead of just criticizing while offering nothing. That is exactly what is wrong with the culture. There absolutely is common ground for all of us who simply just want peace and prosperity despite our differences. I can't fix the world, it is always going to have challenges. We have to fix ourselves first because that is how we got here. Yet you guys just want to cut down and argue seemingly for the sake of it. Don't you see how detrimental that is?

I ask again.

Sovereignty or foreign influence?

I suspect no answer will come, because the answer is clear and doing that would show at some level a form of agreement. Oh no!
 
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Here's the logical question you're obfuscating with your bs games.

So sovereignty or foreign influence?

Duh!
Between two bad alternatives, always choose the third - and better - one.

So, my answer: neither globalism nor nationalism, but the sovereignity / autonomy of the individual, e.g. anarchy.
 
Sovereignty or foreign influence?
Sovereignty. You gave us a clear question to which we can respond. There was no obfuscating as you asserted; just a lack of clarity as to a) what historical reference you intended with your initial post (we were simply responding to what you wrote) and b) what practical real world suggestions you might have (of which you haven't offered any as far as I can tell; in fairness I have none to offer either but it was you who initiated this discussion).

Back to your most recent question (above), I'm not sure what we gain from choosing sovereignty over globalism/foreign-influence. I mean there is one obvious one for me as an American: I find our form of government superior to that of, say, China. But in terms of removing the influence of oligarchs, I am not so sure. Again, the song lyric is referenced seems appropriate.

If you want to start discussing ways in which we might lessen the impact of the uber-wealthy, I'm all ears on that one. That's a huge bite out of the proverbial elephant in and of itself.
 
Between two bad alternatives, always choose the third - and better - one.

So, my answer: neither globalism nor nationalism, but the sovereignity / autonomy of the individual, e.g. anarchy.
.Well to put it another way, the problem is always the centralization of power. What has been developing for some time is the global centralization of power. Returning to national sovereignty is stepping back from that brink. Dictatorships and tyranny is not extinguished of course not. One problem at a time thanks :) So absolutely individual sovereignty is where we should strive. Which Is why I mention common law and how we have actually been shanghaied by corporate maritime statutes that do not consider the living breathing being only the incorporated fictitious dead entity who we are tricked into believing is the living breathing being. I recommend the Clearfield document video above.

Irish guy standing up for his birth rights under common law to the clueless Aussie cops. Problem is sometimes it can end up in being pepper sprayed, blood, bruises and broken ribs, solitary confinement and no legal representation for weeks. If you don't know your rights you basically forfeit them.
 
The sovereign citizen movement in the U.S. is a hot mess. Mostly made up of opportunists seeking to monetize YouTube videos or separatists who use vague, poorly-formed references to common law as a rationale to adhere selectively to federal, state, and local regulations. They rarely win by the way. Typically, you and I end up paying for their nonsense via tax dollars being wasted in frivolous judicial proceedings.

Leaving the video aside, I'm not seeing the connection between global power concentration and this poor Irish chap. Are you saying that the Australian government did not enact these laws independently; that some foreign power controls these decisions?
 
The sovereign citizen movement in the U.S. is a hot mess. Mostly made up of opportunists seeking to monetize YouTube videos or separatists who use vague, poorly-formed references to common law as a rationale to adhere selectively to federal, state, and local regulations. They rarely win by the way. Typically, you and I end up paying for their nonsense via tax dollars being wasted in frivolous judicial proceedings.

Leaving the video aside, I'm not seeing the connection between global power concentration and this poor Irish chap. Are you saying that the Australian government did not enact these laws independently; that some foreign power controls these decisions?
Well, to be precise - I'm an anarchist, not a sovereign citizen. While their movement has a strong positive side - any movement opposing the state-corporate-academic oppression does, no matter what its ideological foundation is - their mistake is trying to have it both ways, trying to be sovereigns and citizens at the same time. Sorry people, but sovereignity and citizenship are mutually exclusive - being a citizen mean exactly submitting oneself to the outside and supreme sovereign, ususally the state; so it is one or the other. Anarchists do understand it, that's why they are not selective in their full and decisive rejection of the state and its law.
 
.Well to put it another way, the problem is always the centralization of power. What has been developing for some time is the global centralization of power. Returning to national sovereignty is stepping back from that brink. Dictatorships and tyranny is not extinguished of course not. One problem at a time thanks :) So absolutely individual sovereignty is where we should strive. Which Is why I mention common law and how we have actually been shanghaied by corporate maritime statutes that do not consider the living breathing being only the incorporated fictitious dead entity who we are tricked into believing is the living breathing being. I recommend the Clearfield document video above.

Irish guy standing up for his birth rights under common law to the clueless Aussie cops. Problem is sometimes it can end up in being pepper sprayed, blood, bruises and broken ribs, solitary confinement and no legal representation for weeks. If you don't know your rights you basically forfeit them.
Well, the anarchy will in turn lead to panarchy - this is, to the proliferation of voluntary communities and organisations following the rules their inhabitants and participants agree to follow willingly. In a panarchic state, power will be decentralised and thus optional - one who dislike one set of rules, can easily move somewhere else where the rules are different.

And yes, (p)anarchists like me usually recognize that authoritarian national sovereignity, with all its unpleasantness, would be still comparatively better to a totalitarian global dystopia that is being built before our very eyes in the moment; a step in a desirable direction, even if a partial one.
 
Well, to be precise - I'm an anarchist, not a sovereign citizen. While their movement has a strong positive side - any movement opposing the state-corporate-academic oppression does, no matter what its ideological foundation is - their mistake is trying to have it both ways, trying to be sovereigns and citizens at the same time. Sorry people, but sovereignity and citizenship are mutually exclusive - being a citizen mean exactly submitting oneself to the outside and supreme sovereign, ususally the state; so it is one or the other. Anarchists do understand it, that's why they are not selective in their full and decisive rejection of the state and its law.
Absolutely logical.

Practical? That's another question. I'm not aware of any large, modern successful anarchist "nation" (using the term loosely here of course). I've never understood how a civilization could function in a real world situation simply through the appeal of each sovereign individual to act as an ethical agent. Maybe there's an example I am not aware of?
 
Well, the anarchy will in turn lead to panarchy - this is, to the proliferation of voluntary communities and organisations following the rules their inhabitants and participants agree to follow willingly. In a panarchic state, power will be decentralised and thus optional - one who dislike one set of rules, can easily move somewhere else where the rules are different.

And yes, (p)anarchists like me usually recognize that authoritarian national sovereignity, with all its unpleasantness, would be still comparatively better to a totalitarian global dystopia that is being built before our very eyes in the moment; a step in a desirable direction, even if a partial one.
ORGANizations of people are like ORGANisms. They evolve. They are born, they grow, they become old and stiff and corrupt and then die. Then their decaying bodies fertilize the soil for new growth.

I see anarchy and tyranny as two poles or two tendencies: towards structure or away from it. Rigidity of structure or fluidity. I work in manufacturing and our company has tripled in size in the last 8 years so I can easily see the trade offs that have to be made as an organization grows. When things are small you can rely on the craftsmanship and knowledge of the individual. As things grow you have to transfer things from an individual into processes and documents which ensure reliability and repeatability. This results in higher quality but less flexibility. It sucks but it is inevitable process of growth. We haven't found a fountain of youth for either an organism or an organization. When you find it let me know, but as far as I can tell adopting anarchy is simply joining one of two opposing teams and neither team will win... it will just oscillate and from the give and take, birth and death, new forms will evolve.
 
Leaving the video aside, I'm not seeing the connection between global power concentration and this poor Irish chap. Are you saying that the Australian government did not enact these laws independently; that some foreign power controls these decisions?
In a way. I would struggle to explain but I'll give it a go, but it has to do with corporate contractual statutes, maritime law as opposed to common law of the land. I was trying to hint at it because I have difficulty in conveying it. It is why I have used the term shanghaied several times.

"Shanghaiing or crimping is the practice of kidnapping people to serve as sailors by coercive techniques such as trickery, intimidation, or violence."

These multi national corporations do not have any jurisdiction over the land. Think of them like a ship that is dry docked on the land. These are what governments have become, Essentially, we at birth when registered with our birth certificate begin the process of a contractual arrangements unknowingly. All of these laws are contractual and require consent. We are tricked into thinking that our registered name is in fact the actual being that is under the jurisdiction of the land we are born on when it is not. As corporations they have no jurisdiction over laws of the land. They require contractual consent, silence or ignorance is also considered consent. Notice that on your license and anything that has your name on it from the government is always in capital letters. That is not English, it is dog Latin or debased Latin. This may seem trivial but legally this is very important. You see they cannot have jurisdiction over the living being, born on land with inalienable birth rights. This goes way back. You have to make a contract, you are incorporated with that of the fictitious dead entity you are registered as. A dead thing. I am currently in the process of de incorporating my name, and filing the right of petition with the Queen of England placing myself under the petition act. The documents which will then be sent to all of the Government officials from the prime minister down though various departments. This is the process of returning to the land from the sea.

So what is happening with the Irish guy and the copper there is actual what is happening with entire nations and peoples.
What is happening with the Aboriginal leader and the cops in the other video the same thing. It has also occurred in the court rooms as well.

It is much clearer in the case of Australia what has happened, since we are part of the commonwealth, well we are supposed to be. Except what happened back in the sixties and completed in 1973 was nothing short of treason. They slipped in a new constitution without royal approval without referendum changed seals and created a fictitious "Queen of Australia" introduced the decimal fiat currency and created a corporation with all the appearances of still being part of the commonwealth. The line of authority to the actual queen was broken. All laws here are invalid. It is extremely blatant and it has actually been taken to the high courts of London. Has been raised in parliament and has never been refuted, so therefore it is conceded. It is a done deal.

I don't know if this is very clear. I would suggest looking at the videos I have posted in light of this to see if it clicks. All of them relate to this issue. It runs very deep. So what is happening and has been happening for a long time is that this global landless conglomerate of corporations are trying to dominate the world. There is no nation to speak of, it is corporate governance just like dry docked ships and we are conscripted into a citizen"ship" as the sailors from birth. Thus we have been shanghaied quite literally.

I know this is probably difficult for you to accept, and you'll probably just dismiss it as conspiracy theory. Well no. This is how it is, Australia is the prime example. I wish I could do better in summing up such a vast and complex subject but there you go.
 
Well, the anarchy will in turn lead to panarchy - this is, to the proliferation of voluntary communities and organisations following the rules their inhabitants and participants agree to follow willingly. In a panarchic state, power will be decentralised and thus optional - one who dislike one set of rules, can easily move somewhere else where the rules are different.

And yes, (p)anarchists like me usually recognize that authoritarian national sovereignity, with all its unpleasantness, would be still comparatively better to a totalitarian global dystopia that is being built before our very eyes in the moment; a step in a desirable direction, even if a partial one.
Sign me up.
 
Well, to be precise - I'm an anarchist, not a sovereign citizen. While their movement has a strong positive side - any movement opposing the state-corporate-academic oppression does, no matter what its ideological foundation is - their mistake is trying to have it both ways, trying to be sovereigns and citizens at the same time. Sorry people, but sovereignity and citizenship are mutually exclusive - being a citizen mean exactly submitting oneself to the outside and supreme sovereign, ususally the state; so it is one or the other. Anarchists do understand it, that's why they are not selective in their full and decisive rejection of the state and its law.
Bingo!
 
Ha, I meant for the shot.
I totally misunderstood that. I thought "roll up your sleeves and get to work".

You're missing the point. I Never claimed all problems are solved. That us something you guys are projecting. What I am saying is that we are under threat from global corporate and financial institutions. What's the solution? The answer to that is actually pretty obvious. It is not an answer to all of life's problems. Would be nice to talk about solutions instead of just criticizing while offering nothing. That is exactly what is wrong with the culture. There absolutely is common ground for all of us who simply just want peace and prosperity despite our differences. I can't fix the world, it is always going to have challenges. We have to fix ourselves first because that is how we got here. Yet you guys just want to cut down and argue seemingly for the sake of it. Don't you see how detrimental that is?
I misunderstood what you were getting at. I thought there was a movement, a plan of action. I wanted details. :)

My misunderstanding.

I ask again.

Sovereignty or foreign influence?

I suspect no answer will come, because the answer is clear and doing that would show at some level a form of agreement. Oh no!
Just so you don't expect too much from me...I don't know much about socio-political stuff. Pie-in-the-sky...I have a fractal approach. Ideally some sort of balance between community and individuality, at all levels. Which would translate into a mix of sovereignty and globalism at a country level.
 
I totally misunderstood that. I thought "roll up your sleeves and get to work".



I misunderstood what you were getting at. I thought there was a movement, a plan of action. I wanted details. :)

My misunderstanding.



Just so you don't expect too much from me...I don't know much about socio-political stuff. Pie-in-the-sky...I have a fractal approach. Ideally some sort of balance between community and individuality, at all levels. Which would translate into a mix of sovereignty and globalism at a country level.
No worries.
Sure I think that extended into global cooperation sounds good to me. True, perhaps pie in the sky at this stage. The problems do seem overwhelming.

I do like the term fractal approach. A concept with wide reaching possibilities.
 
In a way. I would struggle to explain but I'll give it a go, but it has to do with corporate contractual statutes, maritime law as opposed to common law of the land. I was trying to hint at it because I have difficulty in conveying it. It is why I have used the term shanghaied several times.

"Shanghaiing or crimping is the practice of kidnapping people to serve as sailors by coercive techniques such as trickery, intimidation, or violence."

These multi national corporations do not have any jurisdiction over the land. Think of them like a ship that is dry docked on the land. These are what governments have become, Essentially, we at birth when registered with our birth certificate begin the process of a contractual arrangements unknowingly. All of these laws are contractual and require consent. We are tricked into thinking that our registered name is in fact the actual being that is under the jurisdiction of the land we are born on when it is not. As corporations they have no jurisdiction over laws of the land. They require contractual consent, silence or ignorance is also considered consent. Notice that on your license and anything that has your name on it from the government is always in capital letters. That is not English, it is dog Latin or debased Latin. This may seem trivial but legally this is very important. You see they cannot have jurisdiction over the living being, born on land with inalienable birth rights. This goes way back. You have to make a contract, you are incorporated with that of the fictitious dead entity you are registered as. A dead thing. I am currently in the process of de incorporating my name, and filing the right of petition with the Queen of England placing myself under the petition act. The documents which will then be sent to all of the Government officials from the prime minister down though various departments. This is the process of returning to the land from the sea.

So what is happening with the Irish guy and the copper there is actual what is happening with entire nations and peoples.
What is happening with the Aboriginal leader and the cops in the other video the same thing. It has also occurred in the court rooms as well.

It is much clearer in the case of Australia what has happened, since we are part of the commonwealth, well we are supposed to be. Except what happened back in the sixties and completed in 1973 was nothing short of treason. They slipped in a new constitution without royal approval without referendum changed seals and created a fictitious "Queen of Australia" introduced the decimal fiat currency and created a corporation with all the appearances of still being part of the commonwealth. The line of authority to the actual queen was broken. All laws here are invalid. It is extremely blatant and it has actually been taken to the high courts of London. Has been raised in parliament and has never been refuted, so therefore it is conceded. It is a done deal.

I don't know if this is very clear. I would suggest looking at the videos I have posted in light of this to see if it clicks. All of them relate to this issue. It runs very deep. So what is happening and has been happening for a long time is that this global landless conglomerate of corporations are trying to dominate the world. There is no nation to speak of, it is corporate governance just like dry docked ships and we are conscripted into a citizen"ship" as the sailors from birth. Thus we have been shanghaied quite literally.

I know this is probably difficult for you to accept, and you'll probably just dismiss it as conspiracy theory. Well no. This is how it is, Australia is the prime example. I wish I could do better in summing up such a vast and complex subject but there you go.
Appreciate the post.

I believe I am following, generally.

And no, I do not view this topic as a CT or something to dismiss. Its legitimate and worthy of awareness and discussion if not sensationalized to either extreme (e.g., the Sovereign citizen movement in the U.S. on one hand and a full faith in institutions on the other)

The power of multi-national (and even just national) corporations is something of which I am wary. It is a primary reason I am pro-regulation generally. (Understanding even regulations are not a panacea and are often ineffective due to things such as Regulatory Capture). Corporations exist only to generate wealth for its shareholders and specifically its largest shareholders. This doesn't lend itself to factors such as personal freedom, morals, ethics and the like. Only to the extent that those motivations can serve under the governing profit motive.

On the philosophical points you raise related to individual freedoms and the contractual nature of our citizenship, I'm not sure I see this as overly practical. Sure, I was born into a society that had established rules/laws. So was my wife and so were our children. In this way our freedoms have been limited. That said, while I may not agree with every rule and regulation, I am generally free to do pretty much whatever I want. Now maybe there is a threat to this degree of freedom I (and I would wager most posters on this board) have enjoyed. You may be on point there and I may be slow to the alarm, but at least as I sit here today it still feels like a pretty damn good time to be alive (understanding I live in a western, developed, democratic nation).

So I'm not sure how the concept of being "shanghaied" impacts my (or your) actual day to day life.
 
Appreciate the post.

I believe I am following, generally.

And no, I do not view this topic as a CT or something to dismiss. Its legitimate and worthy of awareness and discussion if not sensationalized to either extreme (e.g., the Sovereign citizen movement in the U.S. on one hand and a full faith in institutions on the other)

The power of multi-national (and even just national) corporations is something of which I am wary. It is a primary reason I am pro-regulation generally. (Understanding even regulations are not a panacea and are often ineffective due to things such as Regulatory Capture). Corporations exist only to generate wealth for its shareholders and specifically its largest shareholders. This doesn't lend itself to factors such as personal freedom, morals, ethics and the like. Only to the extent that those motivations can serve under the governing profit motive.

On the philosophical points you raise related to individual freedoms and the contractual nature of our citizenship, I'm not sure I see this as overly practical. Sure, I was born into a society that had established rules/laws. So was my wife and so were our children. In this way our freedoms have been limited. That said, while I may not agree with every rule and regulation, I am generally free to do pretty much whatever I want. Now maybe there is a threat to this degree of freedom I (and I would wager most posters on this board) have enjoyed. You may be on point there and I may be slow to the alarm, but at least as I sit here today it still feels like a pretty damn good time to be alive (understanding I live in a western, developed, democratic nation).

So I'm not sure how the concept of being "shanghaied" impacts my (or your) actual day to day life.
I really appreciate that.

I just say that I really don't know how it relates in the U.S as much of the information I have been gathering relates to the Commonwealth. I do know that it is at least a similar situation in the U.S and it is really just the details that are different. I understand that you feel free. And certainly the U.S has a greater sense of freedom than most, this is to your credit.

I also felt the same sense of freedom, so all of this was never on my radar. That has all changed though the situation here is diabolical, it is insane. So it absolutely has effected my sense of freedom, it is in fact in real peril. That is how I came across all of this. I was asking how could this be possible? What the hell is going on? Who exactly are these people that are the so called government? How are they getting away with this? I can't stress how bizarre this situation is compared to everything I have enjoyed for my entire life. I don't know how the U.S would react, probably better than us I expect. But seeing it here should be a warning to everyone who thinks and feels that they are free. I certainly did feel exactly that but not anymore.

It's been a wake up call, I want out of this nightmare, that is why I have been going down this path of lawful rebellion. They are traitors, they are guilty of treason so I feel it is my duty to enact lawful rebellion. I have kids, I don't want them to inherit this. I don't see any other way. We have to stop it. They are the criminals here. I am not being hyperbolic it is a fact. No one is coming to save us, we have to organize, more and more of us a waking up to this reality of what has actually been going on, and going on all over the world in fact. We have been complacent and apathetic and now it has come back at us in a way none of us could have foreseen.

I am going to a freedom rally this Saturday. In Victoria they are locking down, they are closing public transport just to try and shut down the right to protest, just turning up can get you a $5000 dollar fine. It is out of control here. Dissent is declared a crime, we now have political prisoners, thought crime is now a thing. These traitors are completely off the rails. They are threatening, blackmailing and doing everything they can to force people to submit to a experimental procedure and vaccine passport system. This maniac in Victoria says the unvaccinated will be denied participating in the economy even denied health care. He is basically saying he will let people die. I mean WTF? Hey if you want to get the shot, as long as you are given proper informed consent then that is a personal choice. But something else is happening here, it is certainly is not at all about our health. The ugly truth is being censored and covered up there is real suffering going on. The virus is the very least of our concerns, hell it has hardly even been an issue here in reality. No, this is not about a virus.

Anyway I am ranting. It kind of helps. Sorry if I am sounding a bit crazy. Truth be told I am pretty desperate.

Here is Some more on Lawful rebellion in terms of the U.K, it is pretty much the same for all the commonwealth actually. I really think this is the way to go, we can actually prove these governments are treasonous criminals, but it is going to take a lot more of us to come together.

 
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