David Mathisen is changing the way we think about Hercules |337|

[Michael Larkin]

I am not quite sure if you are saying that these patterns were put into the sky by conscious actions of higher beings (HBs) (using the term very loosely), or whether the patterns are essentially random, but the constellations have been used as a metaphor by HBs in a consistent way down the ages.
David

First, I too would like to sincerely thank David M. for posting his summary here. Secondly, I'd like to say that what David B. has said here perfectly encapsulates my central question -- thanks, David B.

Ancient human beings didn't have much upon which to base their musings. There were no means of mass communication over long distances. However, all human beings had access to a view of the sky and an internal sense of the divine: a sense that may have been inherently similar in different cultures. They may all have projected onto the constellations similar myths that arose as a result of this internal similarity. There may even have been an element of telepathy between cultures that prompted them to interpret aggregations of stars in similar ways: prompted them to focus on the same constellations rather than other groups of stars which weren't chosen.

It's not that I'm denying the possibility that different ancient cultures looked at the sky in similar ways and interpreted certain constellations in terms of similar myths. It's rather that, as David B. points out, I'm wondering what the source of that similarity is. Did it arise from the inside (human spirituality) and was it then projected out into the sky, or did what appeared in the sky in some sense drive human spirituality? I'm perfectly prepared to consider the former, but the latter seems less probable to me.

 

[Alex]

What I think you are saying, is that the images of H.A Rey resemble the various images that the ancients produced, more than either resemble the night sky. I mean, to me, you could draw almost any image on a piece of reasonably bright night sky (i.e. in the galactic plane) with as much correspondence with the actual stars!

but what about the massive amount of evidence that Mathisen presents suggesting otherwise?

 

[Alex]

While the night sky is replete with suggestive simulacra, it is not the only immanent source of mythical juxtapositions. Rocks, trees, flames, mountains, animal migrations, prodigious weather conditions, all offered a narrative background to the human imagination, and were written into cultural frameworks.

If we adopt an unfashionably anthropocentric view and combine it with religious dogma that insists creation is perfect, then that perfection must include shapes formed by stars and planets. However these forms are insufficiently lifelike to offer any but the vaguest cues to permanent meaning. If there's a logic to their form, particularly a cross-cultural meaning, it would require a mediating mythos or interpretative structure of which I'm yet to be convinced.

Seems to me like you're not engaging with the data Mathisen has presented. You would need to offer some explanation for the enduring spiritual messages of the myths across time and culture AND why these myths are tied to the constellations.

 

[Tarquin Rees]

Hi guys, just joined the forums (thanks Alex!) and am a longterm hardcore fan! I have a question for David M if he's visiting regularly - I'm interested if David sees any tie-ins with the Tarot deck in his theory? I read some convincing research a while back relating the Tarot trumps to Sumero-Bablyonian myths (see "Mirror of the Free" - Nicolas Swift) as derived from wax seal cylinders. I think the evidence is compelling and the argument seems to dovetail very well with David's. At the very least it is indicative of a hidden 'universal mythic language' which passed down through stories and possibly the images of the Tarot as he argues. Is an interesting line of thought.

Going to catch up on the rest of the thread now - good to be here!

 

[Alex]

They may all have projected onto the constellations similar myths that arose as a result of this internal similarity. There may even have been an element of telepathy between cultures that prompted them to interpret aggregations of stars in similar ways: prompted them to focus on the same constellations rather than other groups of stars which weren't chosen.

ancient aliens seems more parsimonious.

 

[Alex]

Hi guys, just joined the forums (thanks Alex!) and am a longterm hardcore fan! I have a question for David M if he's visiting regularly - I'm interested if David sees any tie-ins with the Tarot deck in his theory? I read some convincing research a while back relating the Tarot trumps to Sumero-Bablyonian myths (see "Mirror of the Free" - Nicolas Swift) as derived from wax seal cylinders. I think the evidence is compelling and the argument seems to dovetail very well with David's. At the very least it is indicative of a hidden 'universal mythic language' which passed down through stories and possibly the images of the Tarot as he argues. Is an interesting line of thought.

Going to catch up on the rest of the thread now - good to be here!

Welcome Tarquin. Great question... looking forward to David's reply.

 

[Michael Larkin]

ancient aliens seems more parsimonious.

I think I'd disagree. Ancient aliens come here and -- what? Spread different versions of essentially the same myths to different peoples? Why not the same version to different peoples? Perhaps they plugged into local, pre-existent versions of the gods to facilitate buy-in. OTOH, perhaps they did introduce the same myths to all peoples and those peoples tailored it to pre-existent local deities.

That said, I think it's more parsimonious to posit that people the world over think similarly and that telepathy may have played its part. Or maybe, just maybe, there was more physical travel by various people than we realise today, perhaps during ice ages when land bridges could have been more prevalent -- Wikipedia cites the last glacial period as occurring about 10,000 years ago.

Why posit alien intervention when there are a number of possible terrestrial mechanisms?

 

[gabriel]

Seems to me like you're not engaging with the data Mathisen has presented. You would need to offer some explanation for the enduring spiritual messages of the myths across time and culture AND why these myths are tied to the constellations.

My first point is the night sky is not the only natural supply of cultural myths. The second point you answered:

ancient aliens seems more parsimonious.

A hypodermic explanation of the alien variety, or an implanted genetic predisposition to interpret the same way are the only reasons that spring to mind. Both are too physicalist for my taste, given what else we know about psi, NDEs and similar non-material effects. Unless the whole thing is a Matrix, which is unfalsifiable and in-parsimonious.

 

[Michael Larkin]

Hi guys, just joined the forums (thanks Alex!) and am a longterm hardcore fan! I have a question for David M if he's visiting regularly - I'm interested if David sees any tie-ins with the Tarot deck in his theory? I read some convincing research a while back relating the Tarot trumps to Sumero-Bablyonian myths (see "Mirror of the Free" - Nicolas Swift) as derived from wax seal cylinders. I think the evidence is compelling and the argument seems to dovetail very well with David's. At the very least it is indicative of a hidden 'universal mythic language' which passed down through stories and possibly the images of the Tarot as he argues. Is an interesting line of thought.

Going to catch up on the rest of the thread now - good to be here!

Welcome, Tarquin. Your name rings a bell, but I can't quite put my finger on where I've come across it before -- perhaps on some other forum?

 

[Alex]

I think I'd disagree. Ancient aliens come here and -- what? Spread different versions of essentially the same myths to different peoples? Why not the same version to different peoples? Perhaps they plugged into local, pre-existent versions of the gods to facilitate buy-in. OTOH, perhaps they did introduce the same myths to all peoples and those peoples tailored it to pre-existent local deities.

That said, I think it's more parsimonious to posit that people the world over think similarly and that telepathy may have played its part. Or maybe, just maybe, there was more physical travel by various people than we realise today, perhaps during ice ages when land bridges could have been more prevalent -- Wikipedia cites the last glacial period as occurring about 10,000 years ago.

Why posit alien intervention when there are a number of possible terrestrial mechanisms?

sure... I may disagree, but at least we're engaging in the evidence. why isn't academia?

 

[Alex]

My first point is the night sky is not the only natural supply of cultural myths. The second point you answered:

A hypodermic explanation of the alien variety, or an implanted genetic predisposition to interpret the same way are the only reasons that spring to mind. Both are too physicalist for my taste, given what else we know about psi, NDEs and similar non-material effects. Unless the whole thing is a Matrix, which is unfalsifiable and in-parsimonious.

"hypodermic explanation of the alien variety" I don't know what this means, but read/listen to Ardy (https://www.amazon.com/Ardy-Sixkiller-Clarke/e/B00AQGBE9O). the connection between star myths and alien contact are very strong.

so, I'm not married to the ancient alien theory, but I do think we need some way to understand Mathisen's findings -- specifically that the constellations we used as a "teaching aid" to disseminate myths with a spiritual message.

 

[imaginarydeabtes]

Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

What do you make of David's theory: do the constellations and their associated myths point to an ancient system of spiritual knowledge that has somehow been passed down to us through the night sky?

If you encoded messages in the night sky, could the motive be insurance? The stars being the most difficult thing for humans to deface or erase. Humans can tear down temples, or burn books, but they can't yet use a Death Star to blow up other stars.

 

[Tarquin Rees]

Welcome, Tarquin. Your name rings a bell, but I can't quite put my finger on where I've come across it before -- perhaps on some other forum?

Hey, thanks! Not sure... could be Facebook maybe or Anthony Peake's old forums?

 

[Alex]

If you encoded messages in the night sky, could the motive be insurance? The stars being the most difficult thing for humans to deface or erase. Humans can tear down temples, or burn books, but they can't yet use a Death Star to blow up other stars.

Hi ID... yeah, I think we have to start looking in that direction.

What is it about the stars? Why was this knowledge passed by way of the constellations? Mathisen has drawn parallels with Shamanic traditions where we have stories of experience-driven (e.g. smoke this, eat that, drum yourself silly, etc.) myths that share themes and characters across cultures and time (e.g. different tribes/groups see the same beings), but in these cases we're talking about extended consciousness realms (i.e. tripping) rather than something like, "look there at those group of stars -- this is the story behind them." Seems different to me.

 

[David Bailey]

but what about the massive amount of evidence that Mathisen presents suggesting otherwise?

I am not quite sure if you understood my remark. David Mathisen presents a mass of evidence that cultures that were separated by both space and time attached similar myths to the constellations. The question is what does that mean, and I think David wasn't sure about that himself. I didn't think I was disagreeing with him.

The explanation has to be ψ-based in some sense, but is the actual layout of the stars telling us something (because IMHO the picture drawn over each constellation seems to bear very little relation to the pattern of bright stars) or does the fact that so many people have gazed at the night sky and seen those same patterns, put us all in contact with each other and possibly some ancient truths.

David

 

[Larry]

Alex's question at the end of the podcast:

What do you make of David's theory: do the constellations and their associated myths point to an ancient system of spiritual knowledge that has somehow been passed down to us through the night sky?

How about a more standard Jungian take: That certain archetypal images (as images of instincts) appear in the psyche as – a child develops, as adults form culture and evolve spiritually(collectively and individually) along archetypal lines (trickster cycles, Wilbur - spiral dynamics etc.) that are common to all but with individual cultural traits - narratives(myths) form in culture as a way to personalize and stuart the archetypal dynamism's (deep structures) that are inherent in all “creation” which are pushed by the archetypal/instinctual energy and pulled by the telos of the higher spiritual dimensions. (one could consider that consciousness emerges and evolves through this dynamic)
Regarding constellations: either projections of deep structures(archetypes) onto (or observed correspondences) in the natural world?

 

[Tarquin Rees]

How about a more standard Jungian take: That certain archetypal images (as images of instincts) appear in the psyche as – a child develops, as adults form culture and evolve spiritually(collectively and individually) along archetypal lines (trickster cycles, Wilbur - spiral dynamics etc.) common to all but with individual cultural traits - narratives(myths) form in culture as a way to personalize and stuart the archetypal dynamism's (deep structures) that are inherent in all “creation”. Regarding constellation: either protections of deep structures(archetypes) onto or observed correspondences in the natural world.

I'm personally inclining to the similar view that esoteric groups (developmental/spiritual whatever) consciously form an outward projection - like the medieval Craft Guilds for example or a particular mythos like the Grail Romance etc - that is essentially the outward 'wrapper' for the group that is studying under a Master. Perhaps this was necessary in times when persecution of heretics was a real threat or perhaps there's a deeper reason. Maybe when the group's work is finished or the Master dies then the mythos degenerates into a religion or cultural pseudo-historical myth.

 

[Sciborg_S_Patel]

ancient aliens seems more parsimonious.

Curious - Are you thinking Extra-terrestrial or Ultra-terrestrial? Or merely "sky-terrestrial" like Vallee sometimes suggests, that we've long if not always shared our planet with these beings...

 

[E.Flowers]

I'm with Michael here, some form of telepathy or even Sheldrake's "morphic fields" would be more parsimonious than ancient aliens. We see other members of the same species reacting to events that took place elsewhere and adjusting to them, this would be similar.

 

[Typoz]

I'm with Michael here, some form of telepathy or even Sheldrake's "morphic fields" would be more parsimonious than ancient aliens. We see other members of the same species reacting to events that took place elsewhere and adjusting to them, this would be similar.

... or Lyall Watson's 100th monkey effect.