Steve
Member
Can anyone find a way to reassure me that this guy is for real?
What do you mean by ‘for real’ David ?
Can anyone find a way to reassure me that this guy is for real?
I remember reading one of Jurgen Ziewe's books and developing an uneasy sense that it was all a bit too glib, and he might be fantasising it all. Obviously if he really did manage to go OOB so extensively, his books, website, etc represent an incredibly valuable resource. Can anyone find a way to reassure me that this guy is for real?
David
Whats interesting is the similarities between NDEs and the reports of Astral travelers. I used to read a ton of NDEs and it always threw me for a loop when I would come across accounts where people said that they had a body and that everything was solid. I guess the dogma of my Christian past still has a hold somewhere in my mind. But when I started studying Astral accounts, it’s the same thing. Some dimensions seem almost purely mental, while others are quite physical where you take on a body, and are quite capable of manipulating the form and appearance of that body in many instances. I think Earth is just one example of an endless number of these physical dimensions that we may partake in according to our goals and needs. It seems to me that our current existence is an extraordinarily challenging and limiting one.
I just found this guy and like him more than most OOBErs:This is the stuff that advocates of extended consciousness need to get into next. I get that the NDE material has been subjected to very decent discipline scientific questions, and for a lot of folk this is a necessary step before allowing that OOBEs are okay. I think, via Skeptiko, Alex has made this point beyond any reasonable grounds for dispute.
I don't know what science has been done to establish the validity of OOBEs, and I don't really care, to be frank. Maybe that can be explored to some degree because it might be interesting to see how physically based science handles engaging with a metaphysical dimension to our reality.
Who do you reckon should be the first of a series of OOBErs on Skeptiko?
I just found this guy and like him more than most OOBErs:
I totally agree with you. I feel like in this area, if we can consider these men credible, we find a gold mine of information into the nature of consciousness and reality.This looks like good stuff. I am going to download and look later. It strikes me that there seems to be quite a good array of useful sources coming up and maybe somebody could pull it all together as a list (Laird are you around?)(I'll email you).
Maybe we can help Alex get some of these guys on - maybe a panel? I don't know. But I do know this is where we gotta go next.
I just found this guy and like him more than most OOBErs:
I totally agree with you. I feel like in this area, if we can consider these men credible, we find a gold mine of information into the nature of consciousness and reality.
I'm connected on Facebook to the guys I mentioned earlier. It would be easy for me to contact them and see if they wish to come on the show.
It strikes me that there seems to be quite a good array of useful sources coming up and maybe somebody could pull it all together as a list (Laird are you around?)(I'll email you).
Thanks, Michael, I got your email.
Others here such as Steve, Wormwood and yourself seem much more informed in this area than I am - maybe it could be a collaboration? One possibility is to create a page on the Psience Quest wiki and collectively edit it.
Heres my short list of favorites. The others that I have listened to or read, I don't remember their names.
Bob Monroe
Graham Nichols
Jurgen Ziewe
Cyrus Kirkpatrick
Greg Doyle
Tom Campbell (to a lesser degree, he wont openly share his out of body experiences, which makes me wonder. I'm not saying he's a fraud, but I do question his ability in contrast to some of the others with specific regards to astral travel)
So it really comes down to belief and how you see reality, what you think reality is.
Absolutely. We cant know for sure and we cant neatly map out these other realms with any precision, and details are difficult to mull over. But I think we can paint a general picture and appreciate the idea that there are other realms which we can, as conscious agents, participate in. If we can ascertain that this SEEMS to be whats going on, in contrast, I find the details and bells and whistles less important. Still highly interesting though, particularly when they tend to agree with each other on certain points. Its the same way we learn about history which we werent around to witness (granted its a little different). I also agree with you on Campbell. I mean, I like Tom Campbell, but something seems a bit off to me about him and his following. For somebody who preaches skepticism and ONLY GOING ON the facts as much as he does, he tends to present a lot of things as facts which are really his opinions, namely regarding his MBT work.I’m adding this line after finishing the post. It appears a bit confrontational at first, but it’s not meant to be. Honest. :)
Have you had such an experience? If not, I don’t see how you can say that much about them. It all comes down to experience. I’m with you on nearly everything you say. By with you I mean I feel content with what you’ve written.
I’m in little doubt that what these people are describing is as true as it can be...however these days I don’t even totally believe in my own experience!
Are they telling the truth? Yes. As they perceive it. I must allow the possibility that although they totally believe that they’re telling ‘the truth’. They might be somehow directed to tell what they only think they’ve experienced. I see that as a possibility.
When you are inclined to be a fan of Idealism, as I am, then I think anything is possible. So other realms, planets, universes, aliens ...anything is more than possible.
Years ago I posted somewhere on this forum that I was putting my (big picture) money on Tom Campbell. Although I have my skeptical doubts about some things he says and does, my views haven’t changed on the basic premise. I’d love to meet him one to one with no pressure of time. Say on a long haul flight.
I feel uneasy about his many fans.