Mod+ Discussion - Are Genetically Modified Foods Safe? Should they be labeled?

Should GMO foods be labeled?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 78.3%
  • No

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23
Novella is extremely biased and a extreme pseudo skeptic. I need something honest, fair and balanced. With that said it would be foolish of me not to read it based off those merits. I still can learn something from the article probably more then I know now.

Here is a Novella rebuttal, not on GMOs, about his blog and "skepticism"

https://theethicalskeptic.com/tag/skeptic-fraud/
 
Novella is extremely biased and a extreme pseudo skeptic. I need something honest, fair and balanced. With that said it would be foolish of me not to read it based off those merits. I still can learn something from the article probably more then I know now.

Here is a Novella rebuttal, not on GMOs, about his blog and "skepticism"

https://theethicalskeptic.com/tag/skeptic-fraud/

Let's accept that Steven Novella is biased. I'm curious if your contention is that the article you posted is unbiased?
 
Novella is extremely biased and a extreme pseudo skeptic. I need something honest, fair and balanced. With that said it would be foolish of me not to read it based off those merits. I still can learn something from the article probably more then I know now.

Here is a Novella rebuttal, not on GMOs, about his blog and "skepticism"

https://theethicalskeptic.com/tag/skeptic-fraud/

Interesting read. Will have to look deeper into this at some point.

Let's accept that Steven Novella is biased. I'm curious if your contention is that the article you posted is unbiased?

Yeah, I'm going to make this thread Mod+ so we don't get off the topic of GMOs.

Feel free to start a new discussion thread - thanks!
 
Another critique of GMOs [Or at least a particular GMO] - I'm sure there are counter arguments/claims but this one did seem worth a read:

Don’t Eat the Yellow Rice: the Danger of Deploying Vitamin A Golden Rice

Interesting read, I haven't followed this story too closely but thought it was already delivering more benefits. However there is nothing in that article pointing to anything inherently dangerous in GMOs.

Novella's update on Golden Rice:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/golden-rice-follow-up/


Twitter's response:


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Just thought I would share a somewhat different perspective on GMOs. This actually comes from some reading I was doing on economics, specifically about central planning, or central bankers. It comes from Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek and Charles Goodhart. Smith basically said that "no central planner can direct a system of arrayed components that are also systems with unique properties beyond the planner's purview". Hayek argues that the information needed to construct, or direct, an economic order would be "created at the level of individual autonomous actors within a complex system and that this information could never be available in its totality" Goodhart concluded that central planning is not only undesirable, but impossible, because "any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes".

Basically, to sum up what these three guys are saying ... economic systems are incredibly complex, beyond our purview in their feedback effects, whose state in its totality is beyond our knowledge .... and, we shouldn't be fu#king around with them and trying to manipulate these systems to our advantage, because it can only end badly.

I contend that this is a problem not solely limited to economics and central bankers. Western culture was told over 2000 years ago that we have dominion over nature. It's ingrained within our psyche from our cultural upbringing. We like to meddle. Well, nature is another incredibly complex system, more so than any economic system. Meddling in it without understanding the consequences of our meddling, without having all the information of the system within our purview, without understanding all the feedback paths, could have disastrous consequences (much worse than economic collapse!)

It's the same thing in economics (stop manipulating the markets, go back to free markets, get rid of central planning), medicine (assist the body in healing itself, i.e. strive for a holistic approach), food (get rid of GMOs), climate (try and understand what our impact is), you name it. These are all complex systems and we should strive to live in harmony with their natural state of equilibrium. Complex systems like to be in equilibrium. The further we manipulate them away from some natural equilibrium, the more likely they are to crash back to a new equilibrium state and maybe one we won't like the looks of when we end up there.
 
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Just thought I would share a somewhat different perspective on GMOs. This actually comes from some reading I was doing on economics, specifically about central planning, or central bankers. It comes from Adam Smith, Friedrich Hayek and Charles Goodhart. Smith basically said that "no central planner can direct a system of arrayed components that are also systems with unique properties beyond the planner's purview". Hayek argues that the information needed to construct, or direct, an economic order would be "created at the level of individual autonomous actors within a complex system and that this information could never be available in its totality" Goodhart concluded that central planning is not only undesirable, but impossible, because "any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes".

Basically, to sum up what these three guys are saying ... economic systems are incredibly complex, beyond our purview in their feedback effects, whose state in its totality is beyond our knowledge .... and, we shouldn't be fu#king around with them and trying to manipulate these systems to our advantage, because it can only end badly.

I contend that this is a problem not solely limited to economics and central bankers. Western culture was told over 2000 years ago that we have dominion over nature. It's ingrained within our psyche from our cultural upbringing. We like to meddle. Well, nature is another incredibly complex system, more so than any economic system. Meddling in it without understanding the consequences of our meddling, without having all the information of the system within our purview, without understanding all the feedback paths, could have disastrous consequences (much worse than economic collapse!)

It's the same thing in economics (stop manipulating the markets, go back to free markets, get rid of central planning), medicine (assist the body in healing itself, i.e. strive for a holistic approach), food (get rid of GMOs), climate (try and understand what our impact is), you name it. These are all complex systems and we should strive to live in harmony with their natural state of equilibrium. Complex systems like to be in equilibrium. The further we manipulate them away from some natural equilibrium, the more likely they are to crash back to a new equilibrium state and maybe one we won't like the looks of when we end up there.

Let's look at what Novella says in light of this:

The disadvantage of herbicide tolerant crops is that they increase herbicide use, which gets into the environment, and which encourages the development of resistant weeds.

So what’s the net effect? That all depends on how these crops are used. Relying solely on glyphosate and glyphosate-resistant crops is turning out to be a bad idea, mainly due to the development of resistance among weeds. But, as one tool among many, it can be a net advantage. Farmers are better off using minimal, rather than no, tillage farming, and using a variety of herbicides, not just glyphosate.

So, the first time we manipulated the system it back fired on us - resistant weeds. What's the solution ... add more "tools", a variety of herbicides, in other words .... further manipulation.

Just like the central bankers. Fix an indebted society by ... more debt ... huh? More manipulation. More money printing, more quantitative easing ....

Instead, let's take a clue we are meddling with systems we have no business meddling in.
 
Let's accept that Steven Novella is biased. I'm curious if your contention is that the article you posted is unbiased?

Just started reading his blog. I assume from reading that article he does take medication or has. Is he biased? Maybe, but I think the real question is does he have a point? Honestly ask yourself that
 
Just started reading his blog. I assume from reading that article he does take medication or has. Is he biased? Maybe, but I think the real question is does he have a point? Honestly ask yourself that
It appears he has a point about high costs/value for money, and that appears to be his main point. From the graph it is predominantly a US problem... American readers, is he more-or-less correct over health costs?
 
It appears he has a point about high costs/value for money, and that appears to be his main point. From the graph it is predominantly a US problem... American readers, is he more-or-less correct over health costs?

Yes that's apart of his point, he also points out how Novella claims he is protecting people from CAM, and ES brings up the point of what is so dangerous about CAM, when a CAM doctor might advise you to cut out certain foods and such.

I don't want to derail the thread, I will read the Novella article right now about GMOs and decide if I should find a more balanced one
 
Another critique of GMOs [Or at least a particular GMO] - I'm sure there are counter arguments/claims but this one did seem worth a read:

Don’t Eat the Yellow Rice: the Danger of Deploying Vitamin A Golden Rice
I haven't read enough about golden rice to fully understand the extent of the problem it is trying to solve, but the first time I've read about it I thought.... Gee, can't they add carrots and green veggies to their diet? It's likely cheaper and definitely healthier. 2 birds with a stone.
 
I haven't read enough about golden rice to fully understand the extent of the problem it is trying to solve, but the first time I've read about it I thought.... Gee, can't they add carrots and green veggies to their diet? It's likely cheaper and definitely healthier. 2 birds with a stone.
Vitamin A deficiency is a problem in areas where those veggies are harder to grow. The rice was meant to be the stone for the 2 birds.
 
Vitamin A deficiency is a problem in areas where those veggies are harder to grow. The rice was meant to be the stone for the 2 birds.
Besides some states in Africa I don't think most of the countries striken by vit A deficiency really struggle with growing fruits and veggies, it's more of a cultural issue and the lack of basic education from health authorities.
( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905635/ )

As a side question I wonder, when very restricted diets can cause severe vit A deficiency, how are these people going to survive scurvy (vit C deficiency), beri beri (niacin deficiency), folate deficiency... and the general malnutrition from the lack of other sources of protein?
 
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The article actually wasn't that bad, I learned a whole bunch and it wasn't as biased as I suspected, even though Novella slanted ever so gently to pro GMO. With that said I am still truly on the fence about it. Maybe I am just waiting and trying to find something wrong with GMO/Monsanto.

On that note I was trying to do some research on Novella, I read some claims he was not a neurologist at Yale. It was from the Bolenreport? It had no sources so I dismissed it as I couldn't find anything else. It claimed Novella is from a institution that can rent the Yale name?

We all know what happened with Stephen Barrett
 
Besides some states in Africa I don't think most of the countries striken by vit A deficiency really struggle with growing fruits and veggies, it's more of a cultural issue and the lack of basic education from health authorities.
( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905635/ )

As a side question I wonder, when very restricted diets can cause severe vit A deficiency, how are these people going to survive scurvy (vit C deficiency), beri beri (niacin deficiency), folate deficiency... and the general malnutrition from the lack of other sources of protein?
Introducing vitA into the staple food of the worlds poorest seems to have been carried out with extremely good intentions, in response to a real world problem. It is easily grown and stored giving year round supply.

(That paper is tricky to read on my phone, but are you saying golden rice does, at least, have a place in Africa?)
 
The article actually wasn't that bad, I learned a whole bunch and it wasn't as biased as I suspected, even though Novella slanted ever so gently to pro GMO. With that said I am still truly on the fence about it. Maybe I am just waiting and trying to find something wrong with GMO/Monsanto.

On that note I was trying to do some research on Novella, I read some claims he was not a neurologist at Yale. It was from the Bolenreport? It had no sources so I dismissed it as I couldn't find anything else. It claimed Novella is from a institution that can rent the Yale name?

We all know what happened with Stephen Barrett

Well, the Yale website seems to consider him one of their own. He's currently listed as a fellow and assistant professor there.

Maybe you're thinking of the Yale-New Haven hospital that he has privileges at.
 
Well, the Yale website seems to consider him one of their own. He's currently listed as a fellow and assistant professor there.

Maybe you're thinking of the Yale-New Haven hospital that he has privileges at.

Found a video saying he rented a room at Yale thus allowing him to be posted on their website. I'm reading claims he is not a real doctor and he reminds me of the exposed agent Stephen barrett
 
Found a video saying he rented a room at Yale thus allowing him to be posted on their website. I'm reading claims he is not a real doctor and he reminds me of the exposed agent Stephen barrett

Here is one post by Bolen where he makes that allegation.

Now, you said above that as he didn't provide any sources you dismissed his allegations. Has your opinion changed?
 
Here is one post by Bolen where he makes that allegation.

Now, you said above that as he didn't provide any sources you dismissed his allegations. Has your opinion changed?

Not necessarily I would like to dig deeper, Barrett was exposed as a fraud and lied about his credentials.

This video makes the claim also and he explains in detail.
I am very skeptical of Novella something is not sitting right and I will continue to investigate
 
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