Dr. Jeffrey Long, Near-Death Experience By the Numbers |502|

#2
Enjoyed this! Back to old-school Skeptiko topics.

Question at the end: Search the database and share one that interests you.

I searched Logos.
https://www.nderf.org/search.htm

I am interested in: pattern, boundary, will, logos, ontology, feedback loops (judgment), soul goals (hmm good title for a book), etc. ...and found all kinds of bits in here that back up my philosophy of patternism:
https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1jb_nde.html

"Then all of a sudden, I was approaching an amazing, truly indescribable white shining, light. This light was scintillating, every particle of it alive and full of the purest, highest love. It was tantalizing, brilliant, beautiful, living and moving. ...I sped to the Light but at the very moment of union, I heard a loud, sonorous, authoritative, masculine voice, coming into me from all directions ask, 'Are you ready to die?' When I heard this, everything came to a stop. I was completely aghast. I was, and had been, totally ignorant that reaching, meeting and going into this 'beyond everything else' and 'all knowing light', astonishingly meant my death! I felt betrayed. Then, filled with great fear in my thinking and responding (both occur simultaneously here), I quiveringly asked, 'Why must I die?' Instantaneously the Voice replied, 'You must die, because you have failed to do what you promised us.'"

We are at our core ONE with THE ONE, but we split off into fragments and do things. We do things because we want to do things: WILL. The purest expression of WILL is movement or light and so that is how the NDE begins. When we do things we leave behind structure as a sort of excretion. It stinks a little bit but also fertilizes. This structure creates both limitations and options to do different things (you cannot choose door A or door B unless there are walls and doors - boundaries/structure - to begin with). As we go through this feedback loop of goal origination and goal fulfillment and judgment where we see how close we came to the target or how much we fell short (sinned) the structure complexifies and becomes a nested structure of being within being within being like Russian nesting dolls. Our individual identity in this life is but one iteration of our Soul's attempt at fulfilling some goals of its own and our Soul is just one Russian nesting doll above us.

Just as we train an AI agent by running a simulation over and over again with the intent at improvement towards a goal, our soul is analogous to an AI agent that is being trained towards achieving a goal. If we don't succeed, we die just as the neuronal connections that are unprofitable towards the goal are diminished and those that improve the ability to achieve the goal are rewarded and strengthened.

It is extremely unlikely that we will succeed and that makes it worth it when we do succeed. Just like millions of sperm go out in attempt to fertilize one egg and only one succeeds in achieving the goal, millions of attempts are made at achieving the goal before success. It is harder for your soul to be saved than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Then again on the other hand, you are One with the ONE so if you get burned up for failing as she almost did before she was given a second chance, it isn't THAT big of a deal. :)

Also, to keep things in perspective so you don't regain too much of a fear of death: the boundary we draw around ourselves is flexible. Part of you might die or be burned up in the feedback loops which some have called judgment and the refiner's fire or hell and part of you might remain. Everything is in flux but it is all organized around a structure which is organized around a hierarchical set of goals - WILL driving the whole thing in exploration of anything and everything that it is possible to do.

So our lives don't merely have a higher purpose... purpose infuses everything because nothing would exist without purpose because purpose drives action towards a goal and that leaves behind structure which both inhibits Will and creates new possible choices. It is like a big wheel of Karma and you can get off by dying which is to cease all ambition and merge with the light but eventually you find yourself as she did speeding through infinite darkness (motion - the purest expression of will) and the whole thing lights up again.
 
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#3
Way too cool! I was reminded of the fact that has been focused on before that studying NDE research shows that truism, 'change your thinking, change your life' is profoundly true. One doesn't have to die on a table to benefit from the extended conscious realm. People who intellectually understood the insights of NDE research changed their fear of death dramatically. I will check for accuracy first, but I believe there was a mental aspect to Anita Moorjani's rapid healing from lymphatic cancer after her NDE, not some big hand sweeping down from the sky to cure her.
 
#4
I'd like to queue up a question for next time.

Assuming (probably shouldn't on this, but I do).. Assuming the NDE realm is a different place, outside of our time-and-space realm..

What part of the NDE's would indicate that they are actually taking place in an outside realm, rather than just being drawn from unidentified parts of this realm, such as the Akashic record, an Earth Collective, Sheldrakes Morphogenetic Field, or even a radio-field-with-memory our science just hasn't discovered yet..???

If we don't press on that question, aren't we just fellowshipping religiously about spiritual experiences?

Jesus (if real as told biblically) had the highest active connection with God of any recorded being, and still doubted at the end "..why hast thou forsaken me?".
 
#5
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
 
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#6
I'd like to queue up a question for next time.

Assuming (probably shouldn't on this, but I do).. Assuming the NDE realm is a different place, outside of our time-and-space realm..

What part of the NDE's would indicate that they are actually taking place in an outside realm, rather than just being drawn from unidentified parts of this realm, such as the Akashic record, an Earth Collective, Sheldrakes Morphogenetic Field, or even a radio-field-with-memory our science just hasn't discovered yet..???

If we don't press on that question, aren't we just fellowshipping religiously about spiritual experiences?

Jesus (if real as told biblically) had the highest active connection with God of any recorded being, and still doubted at the end "..why hast thou forsaken me?".
I think people will have different opinions on what signifies "this realm" and "outside this realm". But my opinion I think consciousness is "outside this realm" because psychic phenomenon do not seem be be limited by distance, time or other physical laws. It is not easier to see a zeiner card a few feet away than it is to see one on the other side of the earth. It is not easier to remote view the present time than it is the past or future. Consciousness is not limited by physical properties or physical laws, it is not part of the physical universe, it is outside the physical universe of space and time.

People who have a strong attachment to physicalism will say that we just need to update our definition of the physical universe or what is physical to incorporate new phenomenon as they are discovered. That is not right or wrong it is an opinion.
 

Alex

Administrator
#7
I'd like to queue up a question for next time.

Assuming (probably shouldn't on this, but I do).. Assuming the NDE realm is a different place, outside of our time-and-space realm..

What part of the NDE's would indicate that they are actually taking place in an outside realm, rather than just being drawn from unidentified parts of this realm, such as the Akashic record, an Earth Collective, Sheldrakes Morphogenetic Field, or even a radio-field-with-memory our science just hasn't discovered yet..???

If we don't press on that question, aren't we just fellowshipping religiously about spiritual experiences?

Jesus (if real as told biblically) had the highest active connection with God of any recorded being, and still doubted at the end "..why hast thou forsaken me?".
wow this is a very next level question :) love it.

Obviously, no easy answer, but it does seem to me that we have evidence of a "higher realm." for example, we have evidence of healing from that realm. we have knowing of the future in that realm. and we have consistent reports of experiencing a realm of more knowing and more loving.

if I had to bet, I bet that were talking about a different place... and a place of higher order.
 
#8
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
Enrique, if you hadn’t noticed, the channel with these testimonies is an ultra-hardcore religious Russian Orthodox channel, publishing only the stuff that 100% agree with the religious beliefs defended by it.

If you would study this channel further, you will find more such "hellish NDEs" videos, all of them in absolute, complete, total, up-to-minor-detail agreement with the harshest and strictest version of the Russian Orthodox dogmatic teachings.

So... While looking this videos, one should keep in mind that this channel only publish stuff that further confirm its rigid preconceived notions.

Does it mean that testimonies are invalid? Not necessarily - even, dare I say, personally I do not put much trust in them: it's hard to imagine a transcendent experience that is in such perfect and detailed correspondence with the dogmatic teachings. My own study of the accounts of mystical experiences clearly shows that they tend to at least somewhat deviate from what is expected by the theological canon, even the one espoused by the experiencer himself / herself; that's why they are so inconvenient for the traditional religions - not less so than for mainstream science - and tend to be perceived with suspicion, if not with hostility.

So, decide for yourself whether to trust them or not. Anyway, remember that even if they are fully authentic, they are just a few of innumerable multitude, with nearly all other ones not corresponding with the hardcore theological "hell" teachings...
 
#9
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
NDE "judgements" and apparent inconsistency in standards of judgments can be explained by my "Russian nesting doll" theory where we are judged by our Soul Goals™. Souls have fuzzy boundaries which bleed in and out of other souls and they have goals that overlap with the goals of other souls, but some goals of some souls also differ in some ways thus the judgments vary. Above the Soul level is another level judging the souls and their effort to attain goals - just as you have some interests in common with your cells but other interests that are not even relatable. There are various levels of incorporation. ...The "Christ-Consciousness" is one level of incorporation (the body of Christ) with a set of goals most well known for empathy and benevolence towards the suffering and powerless.

The fact that a judgement or life review is so common with NDEs is IMO as important or even more important than out of body veridical reports in proving that there is life after death and a realm beyond this one. Someone could go flying out of body and report something correctly, but the fact that there is a judgment tells us much more: that we are involved in a feedback loop which means that some component of us will loop back around again for another try and it means we are part of a larger story that is larger than one individual lifespan: Soul Goals. "Soul Goals, An Engineer's Guide to Spirituality" ...that's what I'll call the book that I will write some day when I have time...
 
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#10
wow this is a very next level question :) love it.

Obviously, no easy answer, but it does seem to me that we have evidence of a "higher realm." for example, we have evidence of healing from that realm. we have knowing of the future in that realm. and we have consistent reports of experiencing a realm of more knowing and more loving.

if I had to bet, I bet that were talking about a different place... and a place of higher order.
But also there are repeated references in the NDE reports to the idea that time doesn't exist. For example:

I have no concept of what days or times, as in the ‘other’ place, time does not exist. Everything is all at once but without chaos.
Of course, I suppose it depends exactly what is meant by another place. It might be more like an extension of our world of 3 space and one time axis to something more complicated which contains us as a subset.

David
 
#11
I'd like to queue up a question for next time.

Assuming (probably shouldn't on this, but I do).. Assuming the NDE realm is a different place, outside of our time-and-space realm..

What part of the NDE's would indicate that they are actually taking place in an outside realm, rather than just being drawn from unidentified parts of this realm, such as the Akashic record, an Earth Collective, Sheldrakes Morphogenetic Field, or even a radio-field-with-memory our science just hasn't discovered yet..???

If we don't press on that question, aren't we just fellowshipping religiously about spiritual experiences?

Jesus (if real as told biblically) had the highest active connection with God of any recorded being, and still doubted at the end "..why hast thou forsaken me?".
I'd say you're on the right track: we so used to dealing in spatial relationships that it's easy to overlook, right here, right now. Both/and, not either/or. Suzanne Giesemann gave a free intro. to her course in evidential mediumship. There are 3 keys to her method, one of which is shifting. There's no need for a spaceship, elevator ride, etc. Shift! Ted Owens, the PK Man, never said his Space Intelligences were ETs, but were in a higher dimensional level that he knew how to contact. What I'm trying to deal w/ a little better is the 20% of ND experiencers who report nothing! They didn't join the right club? R. Blumenthal said in his interview that ETs have never been videoed in all this time, but abductees have scars, signs of emotional trauma that can't be denied. A complete, consistent picture about anything would be a great hindrance to enjoying life, while creating more of these humans that claim they got all the answers & a corner on the truth market, probably the most shallow, intolerant, & BORING individuals imaginable. The challenge for many is to get them to introspect at all. One healer I listened to said so many people would rather taking a beating than sit quietly for 10 minutes.
 
#12
I re-watched Eben & Karen's interview w/ Anita & Danny Moorjani on their One Mind: United in Hope & Healing webinar. In summary, Anita said during her coma of 36 hours, she was exposed to all of her choices & other conditions that led up to her end-stage lymphatic cancer. Her departed father was there w/ her & encouraged her to go back to finish her purpose even though she didn't want to return. Even though the doctors had told her family she wouldn't come out of the coma & would die, she revived & told her family she would live. In the space of three weeks, practically no evidence remained of tumors & in five weeks she went home. This process was declared by Dr. Alexander as the mind healing the body. Both Anita & Eben have the staggering stacks of medical evidence that they should have died, but didn't & made a full recovery in a remarkably short period of time.
 
#13
Enrique, if you hadn’t noticed, the channel with these testimonies is an ultra-hardcore religious Russian Orthodox channel, publishing only the stuff that 100% agree with the religious beliefs defended by it.

If you would study this channel further, you will find more such "hellish NDEs" videos, all of them in absolute, complete, total, up-to-minor-detail agreement with the harshest and strictest version of the Russian Orthodox dogmatic teachings.

So... While looking this videos, one should keep in mind that this channel only publish stuff that further confirm its rigid preconceived notions.

Does it mean that testimonies are invalid? Not necessarily - even, dare I say, personally I do not put much trust in them: it's hard to imagine a transcendent experience that is in such perfect and detailed correspondence with the dogmatic teachings. My own study of the accounts of mystical experiences clearly shows that they tend to at least somewhat deviate from what is expected by the theological canon, even the one espoused by the experiencer himself / herself; that's why they are so inconvenient for the traditional religions - not less so than for mainstream science - and tend to be perceived with suspicion, if not with hostility.

So, decide for yourself whether to trust them or not. Anyway, remember that even if they are fully authentic, they are just a few of innumerable multitude, with nearly all other ones not corresponding with the hardcore theological "hell" teachings...
I completely agree with you on all points. However, I don't doubt the experience of the military guy, for example; he's got nothing to gain from making this stuff up, besides, he was an atheist prior to his NDE. And that's what fascinates me. Was he interpreting some ineffable, hard to explain experience according to subconscious Russian Orthodox culture idiosyncrasies? Curious stuff. I don't doubt the validity of most of these experiences, I'm just fascinated by their interpretation and would like to know how much the cultural background of the experiencers influences their interpretations of their NDEs.
 
#14
NDE "judgements" and apparent inconsistency in standards of judgments can be explained by my "Russian nesting doll" theory where we are judged by our Soul Goals™. Souls have fuzzy boundaries which bleed in and out of other souls and they have goals that overlap with the goals of other souls, but some goals of some souls also differ in some ways thus the judgments vary. Above the Soul level is another level judging the souls and their effort to attain goals - just as you have some interests in common with your cells but other interests that are not even relatable. There are various levels of incorporation. ...The "Christ-Consciousness" is one level of incorporation (the body of Christ) with a set of goals most well known for empathy and benevolence towards the suffering and powerless.

The fact that a judgement or life review is so common with NDEs is IMO as important or even more important than out of body veridical reports in proving that there is life after death and a realm beyond this one. Someone could go flying out of body and report something correctly, but the fact that there is a judgment tells us much more: that we are involved in a feedback loop which means that some component of us will loop back around again for another try and it means we are part of a larger story that is larger than one individual lifespan: Soul Goals. "Soul Goals, An Engineer's Guide to Spirituality" ...that's what I'll call the book that I will write some day when I have time...
Very interesting. Makes total sense.
 
#15
I'm just fascinated by their interpretation and would like to know how much the cultural background of the experiencers influences their interpretations of their NDEs.
Communication in the realm of extended consciousness often involves interpretation that the experiencer doesn't even recognize as interpretation.

When you are communicating through images and "knowing" or feelings and you try to interpret it with a brain, all sorts of associations, memories, and inferences work their way in that have nothing to do with the what a spiritual entity is trying to communicate. Once when I was taking classes in mediumship and I was getting a reading from another student she, would say something that was right, then something that was wrong, then something that was right, then something that was wrong, and I could tell she was making up a false story around pieces of correct information because I knew the true "story". For every true perception she would try to interpret it and she would interpret it incorrectly.

We were taught in class to report what we perceived and not to make interpretations, to say what we saw, heard, felt, etc.

I think to understand NDE's we have to look for common factors among experiencers and be aware that when a person is telling us about their NDE it is best to try to encourage them to say what they perceived and how they perceived it, what did they see, hear, feel, etc and help them to communicate their actual experience.
 
#16
Communication in the realm of extended consciousness often involves interpretation that the experiencer doesn't even recognize as interpretation.

When you are communicating through images and "knowing" or feelings and you try to interpret it with a brain, all sorts of associations, memories, and inferences work their way in that have nothing to do with the what a spiritual entity is trying to communicate. Once when I was taking classes in mediumship and I was getting a reading from another student she, would say something that was right, then something that was wrong, then something that was right, then something that was wrong, and I could tell she was making up a false story around pieces of correct information because I knew the true "story". For every true perception she would try to interpret it and she would interpret it incorrectly.

We were taught in class to report what we perceived and not to make interpretations, to say what we saw, heard, felt, etc.

I think to understand NDE's we have to look for common factors among experiencers and be aware that when a person is telling us about their NDE it is best to try to encourage them to say what they perceived and how they perceived it, what did they see, hear, feel, etc and help them to communicate their actual experience.
Totally agree. The NDEers are trying to make sense of something inefable and incomprehensible by human brain. It's inevitable trying to interprete the experience through the prism of cultural idiosyncrasy.
 
#17
In their book the Shining Ones Gardiner and Osborn bring together two experiences ie, the hypnagogic and kundalini. This experience as taught by the Shining Ones, as mentioned in the Bible and elsewhere and by other names is the experience known by secret societies and behind all religions. The NDE would seem to be related to the hypnagogic kundalini experience.
 
#18
I completely agree with you on all points. However, I don't doubt the experience of the military guy, for example; he's got nothing to gain from making this stuff up, besides, he was an atheist prior to his NDE. And that's what fascinates me. Was he interpreting some ineffable, hard to explain experience according to subconscious Russian Orthodox culture idiosyncrasies? Curious stuff. I don't doubt the validity of most of these experiences, I'm just fascinated by their interpretation and would like to know how much the cultural background of the experiencers influences their interpretations of their NDEs.
Off the top of my head, I believe the vast majority of NDEs are framed for the person in the most understandable, least threatening way possible. In a similar vein, some of my afterlife reading spoke of the same kind of gentle. considerate tone to the environment for those recently passed away. For hard-working people, there was a comfortable office or other work space so that the familiarity softened some of the other changes that the person wasn't ready for yet. In Dr. Long's interview, it was clarified that people didn't interpret a blazing being of light as a religious figure, they described what they 'saw.' The literature of NDEs for Dr. R. Moody is endlessly fascinating; he said he never tires of reading them. It is an ordeal for me to keep that kind of openness to anything, but it's worth the strain.
 
#19
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their
NDEs are modelled for each person, including what you believe in, this part is subjectie according to your religion. This is so that peope feel comfortable during the experience. Most Christians see Jesus if they are strong believers, etc.....
 

Alex

Administrator
#20
Great stuff, Alex, thanks a lot. Jeff has stated that there is no judgemental God in NDEs. I I would like to add a couple of NDE's I found on Russian language sites that I find troublesome and very, very judgemental.
1)
This is one of the most interesting NDE’s I’ve seen, not because of the experience itself, but but because of the extraordinary qualities and biography of the experiencer. Coronel of the Russian airforce Alexander Zhukov served in an airborne rescue unit, parachuting into difficult terrain in war zones to rescue civilians or military in distress. When he was serving in the Northern Caucasus region during the Chechen war in the 90’s, he was captured by the islamist guerilla. The only reason he was spared the customary beheading was the Russian army coronel ID in his pocket: the guerrilla leader hoped to exchange him for his brother, captured by Russian forces. He was treated like an animal, beaten constantly, interrogated, pressured to convert to islam. He never revealed any information, nor did he convert. After a few months of hell, he tried to escape and was shot multiple times. Luckily, he was found by the Russian patrol, bleeding, comatose, on the brink of death. In the hospital he was operated numerous times. During one operation he suffered cardiac arrest, during which he had an NDE.
He found himself in a tunnel, lit by a sort of blueish light, through which other souls, whom, curiously, he called “shells”, were moving toward a huge hall, where a thunderous voice was saying “TO HEAVEN!”, or “TO HELL!”. Alexandr understood that it was God’s judgement and got scared: “where is that I’m going to go?”. When his turn came, the Voice said “to reserve!” (curiously military term). There were three tunnels out of this hall, one to heaven, another to hell, and another to “reserve”. While he was going through this tunnel, various mutilated, ugly entities were trying to grab him. After that, he came to in his hospital bed.
Since then, he, miraculously, rejoined his unit and continued rescuing people, performing over 1.500 parachute jumps. For his heroism he was named “Hero of Russia”, the most honorable decoration in the country.
His NDE is interesting in the sense other Russian NDE’s are: I find most of them very influenced by their religious beliefs. What confuses me is that this is a highly skilled, trained, intelligent military man, still, his NDE seems to be an idiosyncratic interpretation of what seems to be an ineffable experience, impossible to accurately interpret from human perspective.
I thought this would be curious to the forum members.



2) Absolutely horrifying, nightmarish Russian NDE with visions of eternal hell. It's the second Russian NDE of that nature I've seen. She is describing various parts of hell where the sinners are tortured eternally for different sins. I haven't herd an NDE this horrible from Western experiencers. Is this cultural, religion-based idiosyncrasy? If it is, why those affect our perception of the afterlife?


She was driving on a highway and had a frontal collision with another car. She was driven to a hospital where she had a cardiac arrest and pronounced dead. She found herself floating above her body seeing the doctors pronouncing her dead. Then she was pulled into a grey tunnel, which she describes as a very unpleasant experience. On the other end she sees a tall man with horrifying eyes who tried to grab her. Another man shows up and gets between them. The "man with terrible eyes" disappears. To make the story short, the "saviour" takes her to all these hellish places where he tell her who suffers for which sin. After all this, she was sucked back into her body in the hospital.
I thought that her perceptions was affected by her religious beliefs: She claims that her "guide", some sort of a divine entity, was describing to her the "sinners" and their "punishment!". She also comes upon a group of children, an is informed that they were aborted. She asked whether she was gonna be punished for her abortions (in the USSR abortions were like a sort of a pass time, women used to have numerous abortions in their life time). Her "guides" didn't respond to that question.
The only explanation that occurs to me is that this person was reinterpreting something ineffable and well beyond her comprehension that happened to her through the prism of her religious beliefs. With the passage of time she added more and more details to this experience, which took place in 1982, and converted it into something entirely different and terrifying. Even from the Orthodox Christian standpoint, it's aberrant: at some point the supposed angelical entity (or even Christ Himself, it's not clear from her description) who's guiding her on her trip to hell tells her: "don't feel sorry for them, they are sinners". The Church says "we love the sinner, we hate the sin". Meaning, not to feel compassion toward the sinner is completely non-Christian. Then, another aberrant detail. Her guides tell her that there is no way out of hell, with one exception: "some sinner's family members can get them out of hell through constant prayer for their soul" So, basically, if you have an intercessor, you have a chance, if not, no. You have no free will, no influence over your own destiny, nothing. And her "experience" is filled with the nonsense like that. And it's the second one of this nature I hear from Russian experiencers. Weird stuff....
hey EV... great stuff... thanks for sharing. I know I've been a little bit slow in replying... too many interviews :)

I think the hellish near-death experiences are super important to this whole thing. they're definitely reported, an under-researched.

One thing I appreciate about dr. Jeff long's work is that he doesn't shy away from the strangeness... and the entirety... of the experience. as you can tell, he's really about the light and love, but he doesn't discount the hellish stuff. that's why I thought it was so important to get him on the record about the "scrubbing the data" question. I don't know how comfortable I am with the idea that my spiritual destiny is a numbers game but :)

BTW I haven't watch these videos yet but look forward to doing so. thanks for your excellent summary of them.
 
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