Higherside Chats, 4/28/2021

#1
I find the whole "material vs. spiritual" thing frustrating and meaningless. In my view everything that exists is by definition composed of something that can broadly be called matter. To say otherwise is to talk nonsense, to literally say that something can exist without existing. The real fallacy that is in my view at the root of the "materialist" paradigm is the idea that because you have explained how something happens (i.e. the chemical phenomena linked with love) you can say that that is all there is to it, and that it is therefore meaningless and can be dismissed.

The fallacy of the "spiritual" (religious really, with all that entails) paradigm is the idea that meaning only exists because you can outsource it to some Sky Daddy in NeverNeverland.

My takeaway: if consciousness is at the root of reality, isn't it that which bestows meaning? I am not sure I am making sense, but I am trying.
 
#2
Another thing Alex, I love you to death, but please please please stop with the Gloria Steinem thing. My take: it's very interesting in a Fun Facts sort of way, but little more. Women's rights is a good thing. The CIA, being the CIA, sought to get out in front of what it saw as a social trend. It might be interesting to look at how this shaped how things panned out, but it is not okay in my opinion to throw that out there without any further exposition. It seems like sort of a dog whistle to social conservative dickheads, misogynists, and other creepy crawlies and I am sure that is not your intent.
 
#3
I find the whole "material vs. spiritual" thing frustrating and meaningless. In my view everything that exists is by definition composed of something that can broadly be called matter. To say otherwise is to talk nonsense, to literally say that something can exist without existing. The real fallacy that is in my view at the root of the "materialist" paradigm is the idea that because you have explained how something happens (i.e. the chemical phenomena linked with love) you can say that that is all there is to it, and that it is therefore meaningless and can be dismissed.

The fallacy of the "spiritual" (religious really, with all that entails) paradigm is the idea that meaning only exists because you can outsource it to some Sky Daddy in NeverNeverland.

My takeaway: if consciousness is at the root of reality, isn't it that which bestows meaning? I am not sure I am making sense, but I am trying.
Sorry, I don't quite get your point?

lubis1991 said:
Another thing Alex, I love you to death, but please please please stop with the Gloria Steinem thing. My take: it's very interesting in a Fun Facts sort of way, but little more. Women's rights is a good thing. The CIA, being the CIA, sought to get out in front of what it saw as a social trend. It might be interesting to look at how this shaped how things panned out, but it is not okay in my opinion to throw that out there without any further exposition. It seems like sort of a dog whistle to social conservative dickheads, misogynists, and other creepy crawlies and I am sure that is not your intent.
Nah. Women's rights have turned into the feminism we see today, which plays a part in the breakdown of society that is now occurring. These movements always go too far. Some things have been better of course, but the bottom line is that the trade off hasn't been worth it IMO. There are actually way more women than you may think that don't want anything to do with feminism and all it represents. Many just want to stay at home and be the best partner/wife they can. They can't be arsed with all the mixed messaging society throws at them nowadays.
 
#4
Sorry, I don't quite get your point?

With regard to the spiritual vs. material thing. It seems like a false dichotomy.



Nah. Women's rights have turned into the feminism we see today, which plays a part in the breakdown of society that is now occurring. These movements always go too far. Some things have been better of course, but the bottom line is that the trade off hasn't been worth it IMO. There are actually way more women than you may think that don't want anything to do with feminism and all it represents. Many just want to stay at home and be the best partner/wife they can. They can't be arsed with all the mixed messaging society throws at them nowadays.
Many outward signs of social pathology (violent crime, teen pregnancies, etc.) have been trending down since the 1990s, and many of those which have continued to exist have other causes (opiates, etc.), so I am not sure what you are referring to. I would also be curious, if we were to grant the point for the sake of argument, how you would draw the causal connection to feminism, whatever you mean by *that.*

Also, I can find members of any group who will say all manner of things.Would the women you refer to want to go back to not being able to vote or own property, for example?
 
#5
I find the whole "material vs. spiritual" thing frustrating and meaningless. In my view everything that exists is by definition composed of something that can broadly be called matter. To say otherwise is to talk nonsense, to literally say that something can exist without existing. The real fallacy that is in my view at the root of the "materialist" paradigm is the idea that because you have explained how something happens (i.e. the chemical phenomena linked with love) you can say that that is all there is to it, and that it is therefore meaningless and can be dismissed.

The fallacy of the "spiritual" (religious really, with all that entails) paradigm is the idea that meaning only exists because you can outsource it to some Sky Daddy in NeverNeverland.

My takeaway: if consciousness is at the root of reality, isn't it that which bestows meaning? I am not sure I am making sense, but I am trying.
This forum could do with an honest sceptic or two, so I hope you will ultimately come to accept that you need to widen your perspective (as I did many years ago).

Rather than starting from your broad definition of matter, I think it is more fruitful to consider the class of phenomena that obviously cannot be explained by the laws of physics as they are understood. Recently Alex interviewed a Norwegian called Terje Simonsen who wrote a book describing these phenomena very well:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Short-Hist...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1619624182&sr=8-1

I suggest you read that book (very cheap in Kindle format) and see if you can conceive of most of these phenomena falling into the category of stuff explainable by chemistry/physics.

Paranormal phenomena are not phenomena that can be explained conventionally but in a rather unsatisfying way, they are about phenomena that obviously cannot be explained that way. An obvious example is precognition (although I suppose you could say that the laws of physics are time-symmetric with the exception of the second law of thermodynamics).

David
 
#6
Many outward signs of social pathology (violent crime, teen pregnancies, etc.) have been trending down since the 1990s, and many of those which have continued to exist have other causes (opiates, etc.), so I am not sure what you are referring to. I would also be curious, if we were to grant the point for the sake of argument, how you would draw the causal connection to feminism, whatever you mean by *that.*

Also, I can find members of any group who will say all manner of things.Would the women you refer to want to go back to not being able to vote or own property, for example?
The breakdown of society (in the anglosphere) that I'm referring to, is the intentional blurring of the lines between the masculine and feminine, among other things. Women are more like men, and the men are more like women today. There were always outliers (which is totally fine of course) but now it's pretty much mainstream culture. It upsets the balance of society, inverting it and doesn't lead to good outcomes IMO. A degree of realism and honesty about these things between people would help, but the minute you talk about it in polite society, you get the usual sexist and misogyinist slanders. Which only makes the problem worse.



Regarding your point about a causal connection to feminism, and I'm assuming you mean the social pathology element in relation, I never said there was one. That's another thing all together.
 
#7
And also, it's not like all men could vote back in the day either. In the UK up to a certain point in the 20th century, only men with the good money and property could vote. It was something like roughly 50-60% of men that could vote. And that was AFTER reforms! Before that, the rest were considered not worthy, men and women, pretty much the vast, vast majority of the population.
 
#8
The breakdown of society (in the anglosphere) that I'm referring to, is the intentional blurring of the lines between the masculine and feminine, among other things. Women are more like men, and the men are more like women today. There were always outliers (which is totally fine of course) but now it's pretty much mainstream culture. It upsets the balance of society, inverting it and doesn't lead to good outcomes IMO. A degree of realism and honesty about these things between people would help, but the minute you talk about it in polite society, you get the usual sexist and misogyinist slanders. Which only makes the problem worse.



Regarding your point about a causal connection to feminism, and I'm assuming you mean the social pathology element in relation, I never said there was one. That's another thing all together.
I'd say something is upsetting society, but it is damn hard to figure out what is the ultimate cause. I wouldn't rule out some sort of psychic cause.

Strong civilisations have crashed over time, and historians find 'reasons', but one has to wonder if they access the true reasons.

David
 

Alex

Administrator
#9
Another thing Alex, I love you to death, but please please please stop with the Gloria Steinem thing.
haha... yes, overdone... and yes, dated, but I think you missed my point...

My take: it's very interesting in a Fun Facts sort of way, but little more. Women's rights is a good thing. The CIA, being the CIA, sought to get out in front of what it saw as a social trend.
this sounds like apologetics to me... i.e. starting with the answer we want and working backwards.

==== https://www.somaliwave.com/index.php?threads/black-feminism-the-cia-and-gloria-steinem.15753/

BOTTOM LINE: The so-called “Black Feminist” movement was created and manipulated by the CIA from the very beginning. The only difference between Black Revolutionaries and Black Feminist on this issue is that the Black Revolutionaries KNOW they were infiltrated and manipulated—But Black Feminist are still unwilling to admit that they were infiltrated and manipulated, largely because they are highly invested in the hateful brand of Black feminism. As a result, the “Hate Black Men” movement has become MORE THAN just a political point a view: It is now a central part of the CULTURE of Black women and this fact has led to the destruction of the Black Revolution and the complete distortion of Black relationships. And the CIA had a direct hand in creating this situation.

The FACTS surrounding Gloria Steinem’s CIA operations follow:

FACT: Gloria Steinem is a CIA Agent and everything she has ever done throughout her adult life has been under the direction of the CIA.

FACT: Gloria Steinem was recruited into the CIA before she even graduated high school.

FACT: Gloria Steinem, who was from a poor and dysfunctional family and lived in a house without running water, was able to attend the elite and expensive Smith College. After she graduated she spent two years in India spying for the CIA. She received a “Chester Bowles Student Fellowship” to “study” in India. This was a Fellowship created by the CIA to cover Steinem’s expenses in India—no one has received a “Cheater Bowles Student Fellowship” either before or since Steinem received one.

FACT: One of Gloria Steinem’s first missions for the CIA was to manipulate the student movement (most people are STILL unaware that the National Student Association was created, funded and manipulated by the CIA). Steinem did this by organizing “student festivals” in Europe in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Steinem used the “student festivals” to spy on students for the CIA and she likely used the festivals to recruit new agents for the CIA. A second and more successful mission was to shift the orientation of the “woman’s movement” and splinter the Black Revolution of the 1960’s.

FACT: In 1958, Cord Meyer, head of the CIA’s International Organizations division (IO), had a plan. The Agency would provide discreet funding to an “informal group of activists” who would constitute themselves as an alternative American delegation to the festival. The CIA would not only pay their way but also assist them to distribute books and publish a newspaper in Vienna. Among other individuals, Meyer and his colleagues hired Gloria Steinem to work with them. Steinem had recently returned from a two-year stint in India.

FACT: In 1958, Steinem was recruited by CIA’s Cord Meyers to direct the “informal group of activists” now called the “Independent Research Service.” This was part of Meyer’s “Congress for Cultural Freedom,” which created magazines like “Encounter” and “Partisan Review” to promote a left-liberal chic to oppose Marxism. It was this operation that Steinem’s “student festivals” was a part of. Besides spying on students, Steinem also acted as an agent provocateur, helping to provoke riots.

FACT: Commenting on the CIA-controlled “student festivals” organized by Gloria Steinem, Sheila Tobias, an unwitting participant on one such trip (who later taught women’s studies at Cornell University), said the CIA: “was interested in spying on the American delegates to find out who in the United States was a Trotskyite or Communist. So we were a front, as it turned out.” (quoted by Marcia Cohen in the Sisterhood, 1988)

FACT: Further information of Steinem’s CIA operations: Working through C.D. Jackson and Cord Meyer, Steinem set up an organization in Cambridge, Massachusetts called the Independent Service for Information on the Vienna Youth Festival. She obtained tax-exempt status, and Jackson helped her raise contributions from various American corporations, including the American Express Company (a documented CIA money laundering operation). But most of the money came from the CIA, to be managed by Jackson in a “special account.” The entire operation cost in the range of $85,000, a considerable amount in those years.
 

Alex

Administrator
#10
I find the whole "material vs. spiritual" thing frustrating and meaningless. In my view everything that exists is by definition composed of something that can broadly be called matter. To say otherwise is to talk nonsense, to literally say that something can exist without existing. The real fallacy that is in my view at the root of the "materialist" paradigm is the idea that because you have explained how something happens (i.e. the chemical phenomena linked with love) you can say that that is all there is to it, and that it is therefore meaningless and can be dismissed.

The fallacy of the "spiritual" (religious really, with all that entails) paradigm is the idea that meaning only exists because you can outsource it to some Sky Daddy in NeverNeverland.

My takeaway: if consciousness is at the root of reality, isn't it that which bestows meaning? I am not sure I am making sense, but I am trying.
thx for creating this thread. I just created one as well so let's fold this one into the new one that I made.
 
#11
I find the whole "material vs. spiritual" thing frustrating and meaningless. In my view everything that exists is by definition composed of something that can broadly be called matter. To say otherwise is to talk nonsense, to literally say that something can exist without existing. The real fallacy that is in my view at the root of the "materialist" paradigm is the idea that because you have explained how something happens (i.e. the chemical phenomena linked with love) you can say that that is all there is to it, and that it is therefore meaningless and can be dismissed.

The fallacy of the "spiritual" (religious really, with all that entails) paradigm is the idea that meaning only exists because you can outsource it to some Sky Daddy in NeverNeverland.

My takeaway: if consciousness is at the root of reality, isn't it that which bestows meaning? I am not sure I am making sense, but I am trying.
I found freedom from this issue by adopting the word "form" into my grander world view... this resolved the duality issue of "spiritual/material" for me.
 
#12
haha... yes, overdone... and yes, dated, but I think you missed my point...


this sounds like apologetics to me... i.e. starting with the answer we want and working backwards.

==== https://www.somaliwave.com/index.php?threads/black-feminism-the-cia-and-gloria-steinem.15753/

BOTTOM LINE: The so-called “Black Feminist” movement was created and manipulated by the CIA from the very beginning. The only difference between Black Revolutionaries and Black Feminist on this issue is that the Black Revolutionaries KNOW they were infiltrated and manipulated—But Black Feminist are still unwilling to admit that they were infiltrated and manipulated, largely because they are highly invested in the hateful brand of Black feminism. As a result, the “Hate Black Men” movement has become MORE THAN just a political point a view: It is now a central part of the CULTURE of Black women and this fact has led to the destruction of the Black Revolution and the complete distortion of Black relationships. And the CIA had a direct hand in creating this situation.

The FACTS surrounding Gloria Steinem’s CIA operations follow:

FACT: Gloria Steinem is a CIA Agent and everything she has ever done throughout her adult life has been under the direction of the CIA.

FACT: Gloria Steinem was recruited into the CIA before she even graduated high school.

FACT: Gloria Steinem, who was from a poor and dysfunctional family and lived in a house without running water, was able to attend the elite and expensive Smith College. After she graduated she spent two years in India spying for the CIA. She received a “Chester Bowles Student Fellowship” to “study” in India. This was a Fellowship created by the CIA to cover Steinem’s expenses in India—no one has received a “Cheater Bowles Student Fellowship” either before or since Steinem received one.

FACT: One of Gloria Steinem’s first missions for the CIA was to manipulate the student movement (most people are STILL unaware that the National Student Association was created, funded and manipulated by the CIA). Steinem did this by organizing “student festivals” in Europe in the 1950’s and 1960’s. Steinem used the “student festivals” to spy on students for the CIA and she likely used the festivals to recruit new agents for the CIA. A second and more successful mission was to shift the orientation of the “woman’s movement” and splinter the Black Revolution of the 1960’s.

FACT: In 1958, Cord Meyer, head of the CIA’s International Organizations division (IO), had a plan. The Agency would provide discreet funding to an “informal group of activists” who would constitute themselves as an alternative American delegation to the festival. The CIA would not only pay their way but also assist them to distribute books and publish a newspaper in Vienna. Among other individuals, Meyer and his colleagues hired Gloria Steinem to work with them. Steinem had recently returned from a two-year stint in India.

FACT: In 1958, Steinem was recruited by CIA’s Cord Meyers to direct the “informal group of activists” now called the “Independent Research Service.” This was part of Meyer’s “Congress for Cultural Freedom,” which created magazines like “Encounter” and “Partisan Review” to promote a left-liberal chic to oppose Marxism. It was this operation that Steinem’s “student festivals” was a part of. Besides spying on students, Steinem also acted as an agent provocateur, helping to provoke riots.

FACT: Commenting on the CIA-controlled “student festivals” organized by Gloria Steinem, Sheila Tobias, an unwitting participant on one such trip (who later taught women’s studies at Cornell University), said the CIA: “was interested in spying on the American delegates to find out who in the United States was a Trotskyite or Communist. So we were a front, as it turned out.” (quoted by Marcia Cohen in the Sisterhood, 1988)

FACT: Further information of Steinem’s CIA operations: Working through C.D. Jackson and Cord Meyer, Steinem set up an organization in Cambridge, Massachusetts called the Independent Service for Information on the Vienna Youth Festival. She obtained tax-exempt status, and Jackson helped her raise contributions from various American corporations, including the American Express Company (a documented CIA money laundering operation). But most of the money came from the CIA, to be managed by Jackson in a “special account.” The entire operation cost in the range of $85,000, a considerable amount in those years.
I suggest it would be good to add some references at the bottom of that post - one for each fact. I think Dr Kendrick's blog and books are massively enhanced because he fully references everything. Also, remember that there are so-called 'fact checkers' that try to suppress the truth.

"Chester Bowles" or "Cheater Bowle" :)

David
 
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