Is Religion Dead?

gabriel

gabriel

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Organised belief comes in for a good deal of opprobrium on this forum, and is often used to counterpoint aggressive skepticism, but I wonder how representative the stereotype of 'believer' is. Yesterday was Easter Sunday and I visited my local Catholic church, as I do every Sunday I'm at home. It's an unexceptional town church, impossible to get a seat less than ten minutes before a service, and the back of the church is full on a normal Sunday. At Easter, the aisles are also rammed with people, the rear is shoulder to shoulder, and many stand outside.

The congregation is a cross section of society, with a considerable number of academics from the local university and medical professionals, including consultants from the nearby hospital. There was little of the dourness people associate with religion, and none of the fundamentalism, which lead me to wonder whether the church was undergoing some kind of revival. Numerous nationalities were represented, all getting on perfectly well and clearly enjoying being there. This was for a single service, there were others on the day, and the same for a different parish less than a mile away.

All this is anecdote, but it would be easy to adopt the cliché that religion is the last bastion of the ignorant and the helpless. It looked to be in rude good health from my perspective, and lacking nothing in intellect or fervour. It was nothing like the church of my childhood, which was monocultural, intellectually stymied, authoritarian and home to fewer members by the week. I'm not sure why this should be, but I welcome the transformation.
 
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You seem to be using the word 'religion' as something akin to organised/institutional Christianity. I'd hazard a guess though that you don't bound religion to that river alone?

In any event, Christianity tends to be on the rise in non-Western countries, whereas the population percentage that identifies itself as Christian tends to be on the decline in Western countries. Also, in the last few decades, the rise of the megachurch phenomenon has seriously impacted the face of Christianity in many places. Alongside of this there have been other movements, such as the emergent church, that have really revitalised parts of organised Christianity. Pastor/writers like Brian McLaren and Rob Bell have attracted a fresh face of Christian, those who identify with the stories but not necessarily the dogma.

I evolved away from Christianity as I could no longer relate to mainstream theology. Had there been an emergent church in my area, I would undoubtedly have tested the waters there, but alas, the area where I live is more theologically conservative. Still, when I look at my Christian friends, there is a lot I admire about their communities.
 
Szechuan said:
You seem to be using the word 'religion' as something akin to organised/institutional Christianity.
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I'm not sure users of this forum differentiate between religions, or how representative of religious believers my church is. The most obvious difference from the stereotype is how broad the church is, demographically. My suspicion is the church acts as a repository for spiritual aspiration, rather than a closely guarded theology, partly because it is so multicultural and each strand brings its own world view to bear. Whether this is a problem for the clergy, I have no idea, but it operates more in line with how I prefer to imagine personal spirituality functions, than the model people like Richard Dawkins propose.

In medieval times the church had huge popular support, and people felt proprietorial towards it, as the historian Eamon Duffy has explored. It would be good to think it fulfilled the same function in the modern world. That some people feel no requirement for such for such a focus, should not shape the depiction of organised belief in general.
 
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Churches are fighting a rearguard action in the UK, because many church schools are highly rated academically; however, to get in, children have to have a good record of church attendance. Hence many parents are keen to take them every Sunday: but it's just cupboard love, really.

Christianity's also had a recent boost here because, besides the church schools, we have Polish and other Eastern European immigrants. Poles aren't new here: there were quite a few immigrants after WWII, and I was at school with a few, as well as Ukrainians. I think they're good people and an asset to the country. They work hard, even as children at school. They might help save us from from slow poisoning by the perverted values of political correctness. I hope so: IMO, the country's going to the dogs.
 
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Arouet said:
Religions are clearly far from dead - not really sure why you'd think otherwise.
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Because the depiction of them in the UK from all sides, is that they no longer serve a useful function in society. I'm no expert on such matters, but I wonder if religion is reinventing itself, or people have moved past anti-clericalism towards a new stage of ownership.

On Michael's point, the nearby Polish language church is also packed, but it means none or very few attend the church I go to. My wife, who has recently decided to attend with me of her own volition, was amazed how wide the demographic was, including members of highly educated professional groups one might not associate with church attendance - in fact it was she who pointed the fact out to me. Difficult to say what's going on, or how widespread the phenomenon is.
 
gabriel said:
Because the depiction of them in the UK from all sides, is that they no longer serve a useful function in society. I'm no expert on such matters, but I wonder if religion is reinventing itself, or people have moved past anti-clericalism towards a new stage of ownership.
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I think you're confusing the wish for religion to be dead by some people with its actual demise.
 
gabriel said:
My wife, who has recently decided to attend with me of her own volition, was amazed how wide the demographic was, including members of highly educated professional groups one might not associate with church attendance - in fact it was she who pointed the fact out to me. Difficult to say what's going on, or how widespread the phenomenon is.
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Well, Gabriel, who do you think is most concerned to get their kids a good education? Mightn't that be highly educated professional groups?
 
gabriel said:
Because the depiction of them in the UK from all sides, is that they no longer serve a useful function in society. I'm no expert on such matters, but I wonder if religion is reinventing itself, or people have moved past anti-clericalism towards a new stage of ownership.

"On Michael's point, the nearby Polish language church is also packed, but it means none or very few attend the church I go to. My wife, who has recently decided to attend with me of her own volition, was amazed how wide the demographic was, including members of highly educated professional groups one might not associate with church attendance - in fact it was she who pointed the fact out to me. Difficult to say what's going on, or how widespread the phenomenon is.
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"

I don't attend church myself because I can't accept the rituals and the dogma and I don't see the value or the point in congregating to recite the same statements every week. It seems empty or hollow to me and I genuinely don't see why "God" would even require or desire such a thing. I have noticed a sort of resurgence though. I wondered if the NDE stories which frequent the tabloids had persuaded some people to go back for whatever reason.
That said, I don't have any problem with others attending, my sister is a keen church goer etc.
 
Szechuan said:
You seem to be using the word 'religion' as something akin to organised/institutional Christianity. I'd hazard a guess though that you don't bound religion to that river alone?

In any event, Christianity tends to be on the rise in non-Western countries, whereas the population percentage that identifies itself as Christian tends to be on the decline in Western countries. Also, in the last few decades, the rise of the megachurch phenomenon has seriously impacted the face of Christianity in many places. Alongside of this there have been other movements, such as the emergent church, that have really revitalised parts of organised Christianity. Pastor/writers like Brian McLaren and Rob Bell have attracted a fresh face of Christian, those who identify with the stories but not necessarily the dogma.

I evolved away from Christianity as I could no longer relate to mainstream theology. Had there been an emergent church in my area, I would undoubtedly have tested the waters there, but alas, the area where I live is more theologically conservative. Still, when I look at my Christian friends, there is a lot I admire about their communities.
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I liked your post, Szechuan. By coincidence, I've very recently been reading about the rise of Christianity in the Far East, particularly China, and even in some Muslim-majority countries. Say what you like about Christianity, but countries that adopted it have been at the forefront of technological progress for a long time. Countries dominated by other religions, particularly Islam, seem for whatever reason (slamming shut the doors of Ijtihad?), to have languished for centuries.

Maybe it's a fanciful conjecture, but we're seeing the rise of such progress now in the far East, so is Christianity in some way particularly conducive to it? If so, is that a sociological or a spiritual phenomenon, or perhaps a bit of both? BTW, does your name indicate that you are of Far Eastern origin? No need to answer that if you don't want, by the way; I'm just curious.
 
tim said:
"

I don't attend church myself because I can't accept the rituals and the dogma and I don't see the value or the point in congregating to recite the same statements every week. It seems empty or hollow to me and I genuinely don't see why "God" would even require or desire such a thing. I have noticed a sort of resurgence though. I wondered if the NDE stories which frequent the tabloids had persuaded some people to go back for whatever reason.
That said, I don't have any problem with others attending, my sister is a keen church goer etc.
Click to expand...
I'm also not religious, though I do consider myself spiritual. I can see the value of religion, though: particularly Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism, though I struggle with Islam despite my admiration for Sufism. Societies do need some kind of moral compass; ideally, that would arise from each individual's intrinsically spiritual nature, but religion can be a bridge towards that, I think.
 
Dogma is what turned me away. I am pretty sure that the fundamental message behind all religions is the same but when the message becomes wrapped in dogma, tribalism ensues. How on earth the basic Christian messages of tolerance and forgiveness became twisted into intolerance and pious judgement is beyond me.

Like Michael, however, I didn't throw out the baby with the bath water so I too would describe myself as spiritual (by aspiration if not always in practice: some people severely test my capacity for turning the other cheek).
 
I remember when I was at school, one of our teachers in a conversational manner, mentioned that he preferred his religious ceremonies in Latin or a language he didn't understand, in order to preserve some of the mystery. At the time, I didn't comprehend what he meant. But I think there was a point there. When everything is in plain English (or one's native language, whatever that may be), all the words and ideas are laid bare and frankly whenever I listen I find myself inwardly arguing against much of the dogma which I reject.

I do think there is a place for some sort of communal ceremonies, but perhaps one has to look around until one finds a style which matches one's inner ideals. I try not to be too harsh or negative towards the organised church, however, I'm more likely to seek fulfilment of my spiritual needs elsewhere.
 
gabriel said:
On Michael's point, the nearby Polish language church is also packed, but it means none or very few attend the church I go to. My wife, who has recently decided to attend with me of her own volition, was amazed how wide the demographic was, including members of highly educated professional groups one might not associate with church attendance - in fact it was she who pointed the fact out to me. Difficult to say what's going on, or how widespread the phenomenon is.
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On a short visit to Ukraine a few years ago, in the city of Lviv our tour guide pointed out some of the many beautiful churches there. He said during the Soviet era they had been neglected, but nowadays were filled to bursting point every Sunday. It's an interesting trend.
 
Michael Larkin said:
I'm also not religious, though I do consider myself spiritual. I can see the value of religion, though: particularly Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism, though I struggle with Islam despite my admiration for Sufism. Societies do need some kind of moral compass; ideally, that would arise from each individual's intrinsically spiritual nature, but religion can be a bridge towards that, I think.
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I don't have a problem with Christ, the spiritual master or son of god or prophet, I just instinctively don't trust the layers and layers of padding that has been added IMHO.
 
Kamarling said:
Dogma is what turned me away. I am pretty sure that the fundamental message behind all religions is the same but when the message becomes wrapped in dogma, tribalism ensues. How on earth the basic Christian messages of tolerance and forgiveness became twisted into intolerance and pious judgement is beyond me.

Like Michael, however, I didn't throw out the baby with the bath water so I too would describe myself as spiritual (by aspiration if not always in practice: some people severely test my capacity for turning the other cheek).
Click to expand...

For me the Catholics (I am one lapsed) are too hung up on details. But the Church of England now seems more concerned with people's living standards and benefits than saving their souls.
 
Szechuan said:
You seem to be using the word 'religion' as something akin to organised/institutional Christianity. I'd hazard a guess though that you don't bound religion to that river alone?

In any event, Christianity tends to be on the rise in non-Western countries, whereas the population percentage that identifies itself as Christian tends to be on the decline in Western countries.
Click to expand...

This reminded me of one of Edgar Cayce's predictions: that China would become the "heart" of Christianity in the future.

Fairly bold prediction today, let alone early 1900s
 
I have a friend who is an atheist but enjoys goings to church for the sense of community. She doesn't buy into the "god" idea, but does agree with many of the social aspects of her church, which sponsors a local women's shelter and raises money for different causes she feels strongly about supporting. She kind of lets the "god" issue alone just so long as church policy on things like marriage equity and women in the clergy are in agreement with her personal views.
 
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