Jason Jorjani. Does AI = PSI? |589|

[Zenny]

Actually my methodology is to look at the overall patterns, not to get hung up on specifics. E.g. cultures around the world talk of an ancient time when there was a global flood and there was a being/s that helped the humans to survive, in vessels or in tunnels in mountains. To an extent this is supported by geology too, of global cataclysms in Earth's ancient past.

What we are not saying is that any one of these reports is to the letter accurate. But the OVERALL pattern comparing these accounts is what's so striking

But still one needs to distinguish from first hand honest accounts,and official approved written sources.
Mythology and religious texts are not necessarily first hand accounts.
Scientific documentation also suffers from one's assumptions and how one frames and collects the first hand accounts.

 

[Nelson]

From NDEs,those with a life review show a hierarchy of Conciousness in terms of a moral Judge. Which is the same as what Religion calls God.
But a moral Judge does not abduct people or engage in copulation. This is unthinkable!
Nor Is there a hierarchy of different alien races.
Why would God judge on race rather than moral behaviour! That is immoral!

But you're assuming that the NDE extended consciousness realm isn't being manipulated by more powerful beings. That's the idea Jason Jorjani and I came to independently of each other. At least it's important to take into account the possibility that this realm is being manipulated.

 

[Nelson]

But still one needs to distinguish from first hand honest accounts,and official approved written sources.
Mythology and religious texts are not necessarily first hand accounts.
Scientific documentation also suffers from one's assumptions and how one frames and collects the first hand accounts.

That's where discernment is important. On a macro level, if different cultures around the world and throughout time are basically saying the same thing about what's going on in the world, I think it's likely there are kernels of historical truth to what they're saying.

 

[Zenny]

But you're assuming that the NDE extended consciousness realm isn't being manipulated by more powerful beings. That's the idea Jason Jorjani and I came to independently of each other. At least it's important to take into account the possibility that this realm is being manipulated.

I'm aware some NDEs have manipulation and falsehoods.
The "powerful beings" is your assumption.
To know something is "manipulated" one must have knowledge of the original knowledge present. Otherwise manipulated from what baseline?
And with great respect,this idea has been known in religious and esoteric circles forever. "Devil's interfering with humans perceptions". Aka,"possession".
None of this info is new,but the presentation and interpretation is what can be novel,what really matters.

 

[Nelson]

PS especially when scientists have shown that there was a fiery cataclysm and massive inundation that was the throes ending the Younger Dryas Ice Age. And even Plato says when the fall of the Atlantean civilisation was, 9600 BC, which is the time when geologists say there was the catastrophic end of the Ice Age

 

[Zenny]

That's where discernment is important. On a macro level, if different cultures around the world and throughout time are basically saying the same thing about what's going on in the world, I think it's likely there are kernels of historical truth to what they're saying.

I agree to a degree. The general pattern is Good vs evil. God unrolling his plan to Judge and defeat evil.
But the way this happens is extremely important.
You can't just soup together generalities,or ignore abrahamic vs reincarnation after life differences.
If you will forgive the outrageous pun,"the devil is in the details!"

 

[Zenny]

PS especially when scientists have shown that there was a fiery cataclysm and massive inundation that was the throes ending the Younger Dryas Ice Age. And even Plato says when the fall of the Atlantean civilisation was, 9600 BC, which is the time when geologists say there was the catastrophic end of the Ice Age

With respect,this is just science speculation.
I don't trust platos details nor geologists.
And once again,how does this settle reincarnation versus abrahamic accounts?
Mythologies and accounts differ on these fundamental matters.

 

[Nelson]

Plato writes in the Timaeus about the Athenian statesman Solon visiting Egypt and talking to the Egyptian priests:

'Hither came Solon, and was received with honour; and here he first learnt, by conversing with the Egyptian priests, how ignorant he and his countrymen were of antiquity. Perceiving this, and with the view of eliciting information from them, he told them the tales of Phoroneus and Niobe, and also of Deucalion and Pyrrha, and he endeavoured to count the generations which had since passed. Thereupon an aged priest said to him: ‘O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are ever young, and there is no old man who is a Hellene.’ ‘What do you mean?’ he asked. ‘In mind,’ replied the priest, ‘I mean to say that you are children; there is no opinion or tradition of knowledge among you which is white with age; and I will tell you why. Like the rest of mankind you have suffered from convulsions of nature, which are chiefly brought about by the two great agencies of fire and water. The former is symbolized in the Hellenic tale of young Phaethon who drove his father’s horses the wrong way, and having burnt up the earth was himself burnt up by a thunderbolt. For there occurs at long intervals a derangement of the heavenly bodies'

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1572/pg1572-images.html

 

[Nelson]

With respect,this is just science speculation.
I don't trust platos details nor geologists.

There are actually many data points showing the same thing. Ice core samples from various locations and by different teams. And it is spectacular that geologists' dating of the end of the Younger Dryas with the massive melting of ice into the seas is the same as the date Plato provides for the sinking of Atlantis

 

[Zenny]

There are actually many data points showing the same thing. Ice core samples from various locations and by different teams. And it is spectacular that geologists' dating of the end of the Younger Dryas with the massive melting of ice into the seas is the same as the date Plato provides for the sinking of Atlantis

Again,how this help you decide between abrahamic life after death and reincarnation?

 

[Zenny]

As a side note,what makes you trust the materialist science of geology whilst disputing materialism and many other branches of science like medicine.
One either rejects materialism as a whole or becomes inconsistent.

 

[Nelson]

Again,how this help you decide between abrahamic life after death and reincarnation?

The Old Testament isn't even that spiritual. It's far more worldly.
For a cross-cultural look at NDEs, Gregory Shushan has done excellent work though.

 

[Nelson]

As a side note,what makes you trust the materialist science of geology whilst disputing materialism and many other branches of science like medicine.
One either rejects materialism as a whole or becomes inconsistent.

I think there's still something in favour of the "shut up and calculate" approach

 

[Zenny]

The Old Testament isn't even that spiritual. It's far more worldly.
For a cross-cultural look at NDEs, Gregory Shushan has done excellent work though.

Ive watched the podcast with Gregory Shushan. Its interesting work.
The old testament contains a lot of spirituality in between political propoganda. The psalms are exceptional.
The new testament,especially the gospels are very good. The Quran,if read properly is the best of them all. The Vedas,guru granth sahib,tao te ching,the Dhammaphada,the lotus sutra are great.
But,but,but! Interpretation counts! And some concepts contradict. How to reconcile these?
I'm sensing you think the abrahamic faiths are less true? Or am I incorrect on that?

 

[Zenny]

I think there's still something in favour of the "shut up and calculate" approach

That's something I would never accept in these matters.

 

[Zenny]

Taking a different angle to written religion,mythology and theology.
Look at direct accounts of mystics and experiencers. What is their interpretation of "ecstatic" experiences or even Psi. (siddhis.)
Many of these experiences are fact. In fact many many non affiliated lay people have these as well.
Why should I believe an aggregator of accounts rather than go for either my own experiences or the most Trustworthy and logical direct accounts?
Look at most researchers,they collect accounts
then either say its all reincarnation,or all Jesus,or they are tentative!
When you have the experience yourself,you don't need to verify with a researcher!!! The experience is intense enough for you to know its true! No tentativeness required!
Why this continual appeal to authority and holding hands with materialism!
Do you need proof from a researcher you Love someone???!!!
If one truly believes conciousness is Primary,then one is an Idealist. Then you trust your Inner Instincts and judgements without recourse to third parties.
Your either an Independent thinker or your not.

 

[Zenny]

The biggest conspiracy in history is the obfuscation of the fact that Love is the strongest,most intelligent Feeling/emotion/language in the universe.
Love creates Truth. And Love creates matter. Love overcomes evil. Love creates rationality.
That's the hierarchy. Love is God!
It's in all the scriptures,even in Hollywood!
But it's obfuscated by priests,scientists (same profession!) politicians and negative people.
But first of all its in your Heart. Your Soul.
NDEs,Psi,placebo effect,etc,etc are all manifestations and emphasis. But the actual Love is always within. It's your Link with your Family.
It doesn't need proof. Just as thirst or breathing doesn't need a proof.
Conciousness is primary. Love is the highest Conciousness. That's the hierarchy.
Materialism and all its backdoor versions are direct contradictions of this. And they are called evil. The language of the devil's.
The language of Love is Poetry.
People love the sound of poetry in scripture and even pop songs!
There's a reason why Rumi is a bestseller and everyone loves music!
In the beginning was the Word,the Beautiful Words.

 

[GeoDoorn]

Just reading some reviews before buying the book by Jorjani, Closer Encounters. One reviewer wrote this on Amazon. Thoughts?:

Just got the book yesterday, so obviously did not get to that part yet. However, the Intro was very disappointing to say the least, especially after all the accolades to the author from Alex. Jorjani either can't explain his logic or there is not much of it there at all. I am hoping for the former, so will continue reading to give it a chance, though with a lot less enthusiasm.

Lots of assumptions such as a technical singularity is possible and will lead to time travel (if that is possible at all). Statements like "The UFO propulsion system is based on Zero Point Energy" presented as an established fact (could be, but I somehow doubt he will be able to prove it in this book). Or "the fact that the tech singularity is bound to take place at some point in human history". Says who? Going into the first chapter, I notice things like "...the claim that 'USAF data collection has been limited historically' is a blatant lie" with a reference put after the "lie", as if that ref is showing that it is indeed a lie, while the ref is actually to the quoted text. All of this is just plain sloppy for a (former) academic. There are many alt researchers without a degree and academic pedigree who do a much better job in presenting the material than Jorjani.

Then, his Nazi, ZPE, and time travel thingy is... Well, ain't we lucky that we live within a generation or two of when the tech singularity occurred when the Nazis developed a ZPE device in 1944? Instead of impressing everybody with this awesomely terrible tech right away, the "smart" Nazis decided to first start messing with the (very ancient) timelines. (see page xvii) While I am open to the possibility of this chicken-and-egg "time horizon" (Jorjani likes throwing such sciency as well as occulty terms - a red flag for me), the probability of this being linked to Nazis just seems to be no more than an appeal to the current conspiratorially-inclined reader. The rest of the stuff (underground/submarine break-away civilizations, etc.) smells very similar.

So far I'm not impressed at all, but will see if there is something of substance in the rest of the book, though I am not very optimistic.

 

[Nelson]

That's something I would never accept in these matters.

The "shut up and calculate" approach can be valuable. Databases of NDEs, ufo reports, etc. can be analysed statistically, in order to see overall patterns in the data more clearly.

If one just took things from personal experience there are huge blind areas. E.g. a Christian has an NDE and sees "Jesus", so assumes all NDEs are about Jesus, and if Jesus ain't in the NDE then it's from the devil!! Don't you know?...

There are literally individuals like this. One has been on skeptiko......

So no, just taking personal experience and ignoring other data is ignorant and can lead to all kinds of monomaniacal worldviews.

 

[Zenny]

The "shut up and calculate" approach can be valuable. Databases of NDEs, ufo reports, etc. can be analysed statistically, in order to see overall patterns in the data more clearly.

If one just took things from personal experience there are huge blind areas. E.g. a Christian has an NDE and sees "Jesus", so assumes all NDEs are about Jesus, and if Jesus ain't in the NDE then it's from the devil!! Don't you know?...

There are literally individuals like this. One has been on skeptiko......

So no, just taking personal experience and ignoring other data is ignorant and can lead to all kinds of monomaniacal worldviews.

I have already addresses this clearly in my posts above.
I have asked you several questions in the above posts which you have ignored.
I will be clear. Statistics and "general patterns" are abstractions. YOUR personal experience is real.
Relying on research aggregators is like putting the actual experience of playing in sports below the level of Joe rogans "expert" commentary.
You are suggesting truth is some kind of numerical democracy. Or that truth is only available to a research aggregator.
And let's be clear. There is no consensus between researchers.
So how are you coming to the conclusion reincarnation is real?
I would appreciate an answer on this one,i have asked several times.