Transgender phenomena and past lives: any thoughts

Well people in strong relationships have better mental health. I mean, ask yourself, would you have had a relationship with a man who had transitioned to be a woman?

David. This is not on. You don't know who is 'listening' out there. This is not about being PC. Intentional or not, this is hurtful stuff and the reason why laws have to be enacted.

The problem, I feel, is that certain activist groups can force an agenda, and try to squash other points of view using PC. I mean, the BBC was actually discussing transgender issues in small children recently. I'll bet a lot of parents find that uncomfortable, and with good reason, but the activists get heard, and the concerned parents probably don't.

The political correctness movement first appeared as a way to denounce real discrimination. Demeaning certain groups because you do not understand their struggle is not courageous. Telling the truth about particular issue, however, is different ie actual event that are happening in the world that the media prefers not to report because is undermines the mainstream narrative. You have no experience of this issue, and your comments seem to be based on ideas that you embraced in the 1950's.

I mean, I suppose I see transgender people as vulnerable - not least to the zealots that don't want to know about the potential drawbacks.

David

I understand what you are trying to say here (I think), but mostly I think "Of course transpeople are vulnerable!!" It is very difficult to change a characteristic so primary to our identity without great psychological turmoil. Roberta is right to state that transpeople have high suicide rates, depression and do face discrimination in many, many ways. In contrast, I think that the swing to gender fluidity and all the language associated with alternative gender identity signals will have a negative impact on some people. Allowing or encouraging a child to chemically or physically manipulate their gender before they are mature enough to understand the long term effects and impact that it may have (often just to prove how 'understanding' the parents, educators etc are) is quite disturbing.

However, in no way should we allow our prejudices about how we should look, feel or associate with dictate how other people live their lives.
 
Well people in strong relationships have better mental health. I mean, ask yourself, would you have had a relationship with a man who had transitioned to be a woman?

The problem, I feel, is that certain activist groups can force an agenda, and try to squash other points of view using PC. I mean, the BBC was actually discussing transgender issues in small children recently. I'll bet a lot of parents find that uncomfortable, and with good reason, but the activists get heard, and the concerned parents probably don't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36141165

I mean, I suppose I see transgender people as vulnerable - not least to the zealots that don't want to know about the potential drawbacks.

David

What activist groups and trying to set what agenda here? And again with the PC thing - what does that even mean?

And I would like to know the drawbacks, but you seem to have your own views on this issue and don't seem to want to hear or consider what others are saying.
 
I'd say that it rather belongs in the "Consciousness & Science" forum than in the "Other Stuff" one, but why should it be locked? It's a valid question to ask and it definitely has to do with the subjects discussed here. Especially the question why mainstream science often looks the other way and ignores perfectly good research data.

I've actually thought a lot about the questions in the opening post. As described here, I think there have been two cases of children who remember past lives in my family. One of the things I felt was a bit too personal to share (and I'm not going to expand too much on it here) is that I know that in the first case, the boy in question, even as a child, has had the feeling of being born with the wrong gender (and still has big problems because of it).

IMO it's a fact that science has not yet given a good answer to the question of transgenderism. After declaring the affected mentally ill (possibly due to a malfunction or malformation in the brain) first, which could not be proven and which was ended by protests only in the 1970s, I think it is nowadays silently accepted that the reason for this feeling of being the wrong gender might be caused by over- or underproduction of sexual hormones and / or a slightly different development in brain structure than that in "cisgender" individuals. Especially the sexual hormone theory, though, doesn't explain why there are children who want to be treated as the other gender even before they can speak, at an age in which sexual hormones don't play much of a role and when they shouldn't even know or care about any difference in gender identity. I guess for most transgender people the real problems begin with puberty, but it's demonstrably a fact that there are very young transgender children who get totally upset if they can't wear the clothes they want to wear or have the toys they want to play with because they are considered to belong to the other sex, practically from year one.


If this has to do with reincarnation cases, it's quite possible that this feeling of being in the wrong body is going to dissolve around ages six to eight (when past life memories start to fade in most of the cases studied by Ian Stevenson and his team), which is why I think the question of sex change should absolutely not be considered until adulthood, but it's also a real possibility that in many cases it could remain a subconscious problem which then might become urgent during puberty.

I won't say that past lives could be an answer to all of these cases, but it's definitely worth to be looked at. And I wouldn't even stop there. Other not quite satisfactorily explained things, like phobias or even fetishes could be caused by "past life echoes". For example, there is the phenomenon of people who have the urge to imagine themselves as or behave like (antropomorphous) animals. We already know that consciousness is not at all limited to human beings, so why shouldn't we (or, probably, why shouldn't a a part of our higher self, extended consciousness or whatever you might call it) have lived (or be living if you don't believe in sequential time) in the form of an animal?

Disclaimer: this is of course nothing but speculation on my part. I'm not suggesting that past lives must be the one and only answer to what these individuals are going through and I sure as hell don't know how this "theory" could be tested or even if it should be.

But I also think that the official explanations are nothing but speculations of their own. Officially sanctioned by mainstream science and society, yes, but still nothing but assumptions. As far as I know there has never been irrevocable proof for these conditions being caused by "faulty" brain development, gland malfunctions, body chemistry (which all might be effects instead of causes) or by "faulty" education, childhood trauma etc.
 
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Can you describe what is "feminine"? I hated dolls and anything pink and "girlie" activities as a girl. I was called a tomboy. But I do not believe that makes me a "man." I think children can like what they like, but it does not mean they are the opposite sex.

Does anyone else remember "Free to be You and Me?" from the seventies? Boys can like "girl" stuff and girls can like "boy" stuff. We are not a different species. This sounds like old sexism, as in women can't do programming and men can't like ballet.

I am very wary of the transing of children due to their likes and dislikes. It's very tied to culture.

I'm surprised this is considered "progressive" since countries like Iran approve "sex changes" for gays and lesbians and those who don't fit the binary of "feminine" and "masculine."
I could describe what appears to me as feminine in a yin and yang sense but it would not nesessarily demarcate qualities of men and women. I think gender is an essential mystery to be explored. Whats clear from this thread is that we need to be empathic and compassionate towards human being in how we go about. I don't think there is anything innately feminine about dolls or the color pink which is why such an irrational strong aversion at such a young age - apparently not attributed to environmental factors - was the thing that made me think about a carry over from past lives. I hadn't realized what a sensitive subject this is for people with the condition.
 
Btw., I think it's important to stress that gender identity and sexual orientation obviously don't go hand it hand. This comes up often in discussions or documentaries about these topics, So, the strong feeling of belonging to a certain gender doesn't mean that you have to be sexually drawn to the other one. IMO, that's another point in favor of the idea, that this is not something caused by body chemistry or brain development but by something deeper, i.e. the thing that most mainstream scientists don't consider to be real, an immaterial aspect of our personality or the whole of our being (and maybe of nature itself), which I guess has been called the soul. As with strange birth defects or birthmarks that seem to correlate with past life memories, I think that gender identity might be "carried over" by something we are just beginning to explore. Although Plato's realm of ideas and immaterial forms might be a good starting point, as well as Rupert Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields.
 
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I suspect FFH was poking some subtle fun at moderation. For irony to land you sometimes need a long memory around here.
Actually I'm not being funny. But the responses here have actually been informed or else just tainted with ignorance and not malice. But so many discussion about transgender issues turn quite rabid and nasty. There are some very strong politics involved from different factions. And it seems to bring out some irrational hatred in some folks. "They say" lots of folks lurk here and I didn't want it to be yet another shit storm of nonsense and hatred on the internet.
 
Actually I'm not being funny. But the responses here have actually been informed or else just tainted with ignorance and not malice. But so many discussion about transgender issues turn quite rabid and nasty. There are some very strong politics involved from different factions. And it seems to bring out some irrational hatred in some folks. "They say" lots of folks lurk here and I didn't want it to be yet another shit storm of nonsense and hatred on the internet.

I completely agree.

(Up yours Malf :))
 
Well people in strong relationships have better mental health. I mean, ask yourself, would you have had a relationship with a man who had transitioned to be a woman?

The problem, I feel, is that certain activist groups can force an agenda, and try to squash other points of view using PC. I mean, the BBC was actually discussing transgender issues in small children recently. I'll bet a lot of parents find that uncomfortable, and with good reason, but the activists get heard, and the concerned parents probably don't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36141165

I mean, I suppose I see transgender people as vulnerable - not least to the zealots that don't want to know about the potential drawbacks.

David

Already said I wouldn't but I don't believe having a relationship is going to cure the feeling of being in the wrong body anyway. I do feel where the PC crowd overdoes it is that not wanting to be with a person who has transitioned does not make one transphobic anymore than people not wanting to be with those who are bald or fat is a sign of bigotry. (And is the trans community really missing out? I mean as much as my mother would tell me I'm such a great catch I have seeds of doubt...For the record going on about the subjects we talk about here....not a good look at the club. Oddly enough women don't seem to care about my massive post count at all. ;))

For the record one of the MtF transpersons I know is in a long term relationship with a woman. They were together for some time before the transition, and as great as their relationship was it didn't change the feeling of being in the wrong body.

I do think it's possible the numbers of people suitable for a sex change operation, or the earlier treatments like puberty blockers, are being overestimated. However, OTOH, I think there are lot of people who dislike the idea of transgenderism because of their own religious or political beliefs. People don't like their worlds complicated, especially if they've built a lot of their foundations on certain ideas relating to sex/gender.

I also think it's a danger to whatever loose confederation counts as the "proponent movement" to completely discount someone's personal subjective POV about something that ultimately affects them more than anyone else. I mean many would say giving money/time/devotion to entities that can't be scientifically verified is much crazier than wanting to switch genders.
 
Right - my suspicion, is that at least FTM's have mental problems that aren't resolved by changing sex.

No one can "change sex." They can take hormones and get surgeries to resemble the sex they desire to be, but no one can change their sex. You can't turn ova into sperm or vice versa. Why are you focusing on FTMs when the majority of trans people are MTFs? Maybe you aren't understanding the terminology, but FTM=Female To Male (a woman who wants to be a man) and MTF=Male to Female (a man who wishes to become a woman). The latter outnumbers the former. Hope that helps!

Furthermore, after they have changed sex, finding a partner is inevitably going to be much harder. Straight men are far less likely to accept an FTM, and may get upset if this fact is concealed for a while. It isn't even clear if a gay man would wish to go with an FTM.

Yes, it makes it harder for trans people to find partners, and it is downright dangerous for MTFs to see out male partners without disclosing their status (that they have a penis or have had it removed through surgery). Men have reacted violently to discovering this information. I don't think that is rooted in transphobia, though. I think it is rooted in homophobia. However, I don't think people, men included, should be tricked into sex acts with a partner that did not disclose their sex. That is wrong. But of course I don't think those men should react by beating or killing that person. That is murder.
 

I know this is shocking, but I don't think PBS or NPR are credible when it comes to the trans debate. They are onboard with it, just like corporations. There is some excellent research out there, as well as blogs, though, if you want to look into it. The first one that comes to mind is https://4thwavenow.com/.

You should check it out and see the other side of the debate, if you dare! ;)
 
Okay, can someone just define what a "woman" is and what a "man" is? According to current trans ideology, biological sex does not exist, because it is a social construct (unlike "gender"), so you can't use biological sex to determine what a woman or a man is.

Also, could someone define what is "masculine" and what is "feminine" without resorting to stereotypes or sex roles?

Because no one will answer that question for me!
 
I know it seems like I’m writing a lot at once — because I am! I don’t have much time during the day, and I SWORE I wouldn’t check Skeptiko forums again until the election in the US was over. But then I browsed and found chuck’s thread on The Finders and had to respond. So I logged in was like, holy shit, I have a whole bunch of alerts! (Are we still allowed to say “shit” on the forums?)

But, no, I don’t have respect for Norman Spack. Just read this article about these twins that quote him. Two twins had diverging interests in TOYS and CLOTHES. That means one is “trans,” so he goes on to the path of drugs, hormones, and eventual surgery, becoming a life-long medical patient. Because he liked pink and sparkles and princesses.

And people wonder why many gays and lesbians consider trans to be conversion therapy. You know, like Iran. Better to have a trans “straight daughter” than a gay boy!

Jonas and Wyatt Maines were born identical twins, but from the start each had a distinct personality.
Jonas was all boy. He loved Spiderman, action figures, pirates, and swords.

Wyatt favored pink tutus and beads. At 4, he insisted on a Barbie birthday cake and had a thing for mermaids. On Halloween, Jonas was Buzz Lightyear. Wyatt wanted to be a princess; his mother compromised on a prince costume.
Once, when Wyatt appeared in a sequin shirt and his mother’s heels, his father said: “You don’t want to wear that.’’

“Yes, I do,’’ Wyatt replied.

“Dad, you might as well face it,’’ Wayne recalls Jonas saying. “You have a son and a daughter.’’
(bolding by me)

Really? (I also don't believe that Jonas said that.)

I saw a somewhat recent interview with “Nicole” Maines, in another MSM trans piece being supportive. Nicole seemed extremely unhappy. Kind of broke my heart.

But this is “progressive” I guess? Reinforcing sex (gender) roles? Not letting children experiment with likes and dislikes? And some might turn out to be gay? Horrors.

PS This was a reply to Sciborg.
 
I think gender is an essential mystery to be explored.

Sorry to be pedantic, but what do you mean by "gender"? There are too many definitions floating about -- do you mean biological sex or sex-roles or as gender pertains to language (such as romance languages)?

Whats clear from this thread is that we need to be empathic and compassionate towards human being in how we go about.

I agree.
 
Sorry to be pedantic, but what do you mean by "gender"? There are too many definitions floating about -- do you mean biological sex or sex-roles or as gender pertains to language (such as romance languages)?



I agree.
I'm probably miles out but how about:
Sex - Physical sexual characteristics
Sexuality - who you're attracted to
Gender - what sex you identify yourself as.
Does that work?
 
I know this is shocking, but I don't think PBS or NPR are credible when it comes to the trans debate. They are onboard with it, just like corporations. There is some excellent research out there, as well as blogs, though, if you want to look into it. The first one that comes to mind is https://4thwavenow.com/.

You should check it out and see the other side of the debate, if you dare! ;)

Well I'd agree it's entirely possible that some, perhaps even the majority, of cases are those of gender dysmorphia. The number of transpersons may be overestimated to their detriment.

However it seems there are people - perhaps an incredibly small minority - who actually wouldn't be gay in their original biological form - for example I knew a transperson who was attracted to women before and after their sex reassignment.

Is "4th wave" a reference to feminism waves? It does seem to me some feminists are upset because trans people existing means they're ideas about gender, sex, etc are called into question? That kind of strikes me as the same attitude as materialists toward the implications suggested by parapsychology?
 
Well I'd agree it's entirely possible that some, perhaps even the majority, of cases are those of gender dysmorphia. The number of transpersons may be overestimated to their detriment.

However it seems there are people - perhaps an incredibly small minority - who actually wouldn't be gay in their original biological form - for example I knew a transperson who was attracted to women before and after their sex reassignment.

Is "4th wave" a reference to feminism waves? It does seem to me some feminists are upset because trans people existing means they're ideas about gender, sex, etc are called into question? That kind of strikes me as the same attitude as materialists toward the implications suggested by parapsychology?
I've seen some compelling arguments by feminists that the fight for "women's rights" has been hard and long fought. And that they don't consider transwomen to be "women." They view it as another way for men to infringe on their rights, I believe. I may be wrong on that.
 
No one can "change sex." They can take hormones and get surgeries to resemble the sex they desire to be, but no one can change their sex. You can't turn ova into sperm or vice versa. Why are you focusing on FTMs when the majority of trans people are MTFs? Maybe you aren't understanding the terminology, but FTM=Female To Male (a woman who wants to be a man) and MTF=Male to Female (a man who wishes to become a woman). The latter outnumbers the former. Hope that helps!
This was a typing error - I was referring to men who transition into women. Thanks for the link - I am not surprised there is another side to this, and nowadays we see an incredible propaganda machine that pushes for the T component of LGBT, encouraging kids to take this awful route.

I simply knew there had to be another side to this debate - just as there is on every other issue that the media has pushed in recent years. I really despair of our media nowadays, they seem to be being taken over by propaganda. The BBC makes no attemps at being even handed in the US election. I hope that not too many Americans turn to it as a source of information :(

Taking a troubled teenager, and pushing them in the direction that will make them unattractive to most normal potential sexual partners, just has to be an awful approach.
(Are we still allowed to say “shit” on the forums?)

Yes in moderation :)

David
 
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